Serve Within Fivefold Gifts with Joseph Perry
Today's guest really blew me away. He breaks the molds and mindsets of ministry and we need more of this! Understanding there is potential in our gifts - the fivefold ministry - is essential to make impact in the world. Joseph Perry is sure to bless your heart and help you think of your own gifts in a new and different way.
🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉Grow your Business for God's Sake! 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉 Come join us November 5th - 7th in Lexington, Kentucky, as we join together with Glenn Lundy and all the Breakfast With Champions speakers to create some magic! Get your ticket now!
Joseph Perry is Founder, Speaker, Coach, and Consultant with Fivefold Labs. He has taught and trained believers extensively on the prophetic, and through his 20+ year study and experience with the Fivefold Leadership Gifts, he helps pastors and leaders break off old models and mindsets of ministry that limit their impact and shows them how to operate out of an apostolic framework, empowering people for thriving in the marketplace, leading in industries and institutions. Joseph was the founder and senior pastor of Remnant Ministries in Virginia Beach, VA, from 2007—2018. He is also President and co-founder of The SERVE Initiative, a 501(C)3 Kingdom think tank that equips believers to create human flourishing in cities and nations. Joseph lives in Virginia Beach, VA, with his wife, Karla of 17 years. You can discover more at www.fivefoldlabs.com
Show Notes: SERVE Within Fivefold Gifts
Wow. Today's guest really blew me away, breaking off molds and mindsets of ministry. Come on, we need more of this and it's not because the church is not beautiful and whole and well. But the church institutions, the people, the broken are impacting people in ways that the kingdom is being limited. And so understanding that there is potential in the gifts that God has given us the five fold ministry.
You may have heard of this before in Ephesians four, six through 11, and today, Joseph Perry, who is the founder and speaker, coach, and consultant of five fold labs goes into detail. Not just for the church, not just for the pastor, not just for the missionary, but for the executive, the leader, the trainer.
And I am so excited to bring to you him today. My dear friend, the one and only Joseph Perry.
This is your God wink. The moment that heaven says for such a time as this it's time to own your joy, prioritize your health, discover your wealth and exude your wholeness. It's time to become truly fit. However, this isn't a fitness podcast though. I'm a retired personal trainer and nutritionist, this isn't business jargon or tips and tricks to landing your successful passion project, though.
That's totally wine with business. This isn't a quick fix health detox ploy though. I'm all for therapy and I love whole foods. I do have a Yolo side, sweet tooth though. This isn't confusing religious banter though. I'm an ordained minister, still figuring out the many things and facets and faces of Jesus.
It's really none of that. So I'm wondering if you're wondering what is this? Well, this is an opportunity to join me alongside other big dreamers. State of movers and lifestyle shakers, as we explore and share our messy comeback stories and discoveries with each of you fellow passionate seekers, the fit and faith movement was birthed through my own trial and error discovery of mind, body, and soul alignment, and to be totally transparent, my own entrepreneurial crash and burn experiences.
I've learned firsthand that being fit isn't about our physique at all. It's not about our qualifying abilities or titles. It's not about our potential. It's truly about our God gifted passions, meeting our purpose. You are one step away from achieving your idea, your dream, your calling, your purpose, whatever you want to call it.
And I want to be there for the moment that you say yes, in freedom, clarity, and confidence that you are living fully fit and who, and whose you were made to be welcome to the fit and faith podcast with me, Tamra and dress, there is no better time than now. Yeah. Hello? Hello. We are alive and in action for the fit and faith podcast that I am so honored to introduce to you my new friend and not new as even like a minute ago.
Oftentimes when I'm bringing new people onto the podcast, I literally just meet them at least beyond the, the digital world. Your grammar Facebook, but Joseph and I have actually connected firsthand. I've got to hug his neck and person. He is not only a local community member, but a fellow brother in Christ.
And I am so excited to be able to bring him to you guys today to just unpack his wisdom and his heart that you are going to understand very quickly, um, is one of strength, resilience, and also peace. He has a really beautiful, um, component of peace that he brings into every space. And so, Joseph, I'm grateful to have you here today.
Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So you guys are so much to unpack here. You can see just from the title, for those of you who are tuning in with us live that, uh, there is an acronym and I am a huge person of words, alliteration, rhymes, and acronyms. Um, in fact, there are so many that we parallel most of our lives, who even biblically and for this one specifically, Serve and what that means, not only from his 5 0 1 C3 that he has, but additionally, from an ability to help us, um, and impact our businesses from a five-fold ministry perspective.
And so it sounds a lot and you're like, wait, hold up. That sounds like a lot. Let's, let's take it back first, before we get into all of the granular, I'm super curious, Joseph, like, how did you get started in ministry? I know you were a pastor for many, many years. Um, but even before that, I love to take root into your childhood.
Sure. Sure. Uh, so I, I kind of grew up in church a little bit. Um, uh, and, uh, there was maybe just maybe a year or so where my family wasn't in church. And then I made a conscious decision around the age of like 15, I think, to go back. And, um, and so I was, I stayed in for the longest time. Uh, and then, uh, just for, I turned 19, I was like, I was in church all the time, but I wasn't really following the Lord.
Like I wouldn't say that he had my heart, you know? And, um, and then I remember just this chance conversation with my mom where, uh, she basically pulled me into her room and said, Hey, if you, um, have you ever thought about going to college? And yeah. I don't where's this coming from it. I don't know which, and I had just zero ambition in life.
No plans, nothing at nothing going for me. And, uh, but I knew I was at a moment in my life where I knew I needed to change. I didn't know what it was. I thought maybe I need to pray more. Read my Bible more, like be more
you know, 18 years old, grasping at straws almost 19. And my mom has this conversation with me. A very quick conversation. And two weeks later, um, uh, in upstate New York and a Bible school I'd never heard of. Um, and I spent the next three years of my life there. And by the end of my first year, I knew I was called to the ministry, even though I knew it was going to be a different fit and feel than what everybody kind of always pitched as the ministry.
And so it took me a while to understand that. I came back in 2000, I got ordained, uh, 2007. We started a church, a password for 11 years into a transition out of that in 2018. Um, and then we ended up launching a nonprofit and doing several other things and, and so it has been such an adventure. Yeah. You know, you learn so much more doing and ministry than just going to school and learning about it, truth and the story of life.
Right? Probably hints all your love, your wisdom. It's the fail forward experiences. It's the opportunities of, of sharpening that happened. Um, the forgiveness that has to be learned, empathy factors that are now in play because of those learned lessons. And so he keeps alluding to we and. Lovely intelligent, beautiful wife, Carla.
Um, and so I know that she was ingrained in so many of those, um, trials and tribulations. And so we'll give her honor as well because she's an incredible writer and, and a partner in crime for him. And so I'm curious, like in this transition of the speaking coaching, um, and, and consulting experience that you offer now, Away from being a pastor.
Right. And yes, you're still a pastor in a different context. Um, which I love so much. I think the world just deems. If you're not in a pulpit, you're not a pastor. And I have this conversation with our mutual friend, Morgan and Anthony who introduced us. And they're like, you, you're a pastor. If somebody calls you a pastor and pastoring doesn't necessarily mean you're in a pulpit, you know, pastors are like shepherds and shepherds were in there.
So we're in the field, right? You and I were in the field. Tell me about, um, how you, and why you transitioned from this, this mission driven church space into mission driven leadership outside of the. Well, we were doing the church and we were, you know, it was one of those things that we thought we're going to do this, you know, forever.
Like, you know, this is, this is the thing. And, uh, even though we felt like we had kind of a different take and how we were doing it while we were teaching what we're building, what we're emphasizing, um, at the culture that we were building, um, our goals, um, uh, the frameworks that we were working within.
Now, I've talked more about that later, maybe, but, um, so we were doing. And then maybe in the last four to six months of the church that I was pastoring, um, uh, all of a sudden it went from something that felt very light to carry to very heavy and the way I usually explain it to people, um, just searching for words for, for what I experienced was, it's kind of like when you're moving like a really heavy piece of furniture with a couple of other people and one of them let's go to go get the doors that you can carry it through.
And you don't see them. You don't know. They let go. All of a sudden, you just feel the weight of it. Pull on you and suddenly you're I go, I can't hold this up. You. And, uh, and so that's what I experienced with the church. And so all of a sudden this church that had been so light for 10 and a half years, and I was like, uh, and I started like, like talking to God and talking to my wife and said, honey, I don't know what's going on.
Something's wrong. And, um, and so, you know, I started like looking around for who let go of the church only to find out that it was. Um, and I realized that, that I had a grace on my life for a season to do that, that church, that work. And, uh, when a season was over, the grace lifted and suddenly I couldn't carry this thing, I thought I was strong.
I thought it was easy. And it turns out he was doing all the heavy lifting. And so as soon as I recognized that I told my wife, I said, if I don't put this down, it's going to kill. Like, I, I don't have the strength. This is, this is like tits Jesus, like God-sized strength. And so a couple for a couple months, you just start feeling like you're failing until you realize that God's transitioning you.
And you're like, oh, you're freeing me for something different. And so then I got excited and as soon as we put it down, I just felt the whole weight of all of it lifted off of me. And I was like, my happiness went through the roof. And, and, and we, you know, it's mixed feelings because you don't want to let go your church.
That's your community. You built this thing. This is your baby. But you have to let go of an old season before you can move into a new season. And that's what we were doing that is so powerful that it's making me think back to yesterday's festival message that my faster Gabe, and it was in regards to the movie Castaway with Tom Hanks.
And it was when he finally got through the wave breakers on the raft that he had made for years, he was on the island for almost four years and he had. Ball that Wilson ball. And he had to let go of Wilson. Otherwise, if you went to go swim after him, he was going to drowned and it's, so it's this knowing that that burden that you're speaking of.
And I think a lot of people feel this. I think they feel it in the dead end job that they're in. I think they feel it in their nine to five. I think they feel it even perhaps in entrepreneurship. And I know for sure, a lot of people who feel it in ministry and I'm so enamored with the fact that you recognize that it was a great.
and exchange and that you even allow God good carry that weight. Right? It's this knowing and representation to say, Hey, Jesus was carrying it all along and now I am trying to do it. And I can't, I can't solo. And so that's a huge, I just think of epiphany for a lot of people like releasing what was. Step again to what is new, even in the uncomfort and the discomfort of that you felt free.
And that that's a pretty wild expression too, to be in knowing that you don't have the full answers to what's ahead. Yeah. And, and it, it helped me to realize that. Um, not only did I have to put that down, but I can't, I have to, I can't allow myself to pick up the next thing if I know if I don't know that God's not in it, he's gotta be in it.
And he's because I know that whatever he's asking me to do, he's going to have to do the heavy lifting on that too. And, um, and so I think that's why Jesus only did what he saw the father doing. You know, didn't put his hands to anything more than that. He'd walk into a crowd. He's used to healing everybody, but today it's that one guy, because if I do the next guy, then I don't have the strength for that.
You know, it's like, he's looking to the father, he's submitting to the father as well and doing what the father's doing. And now he's got the grace for it. Wow. I love that I've been watching the chosen, uh, as much as I can, but usually have to binge watch a couple episodes. Cause I do not watch TV on the regular and yesterday was one of those days.
And so I'm, I just see I'm such a visual learner anyway. So as you're talking, I'm experiencing, um, being in that scene and those experiences where he's in the pool of Bethesda or not in the pool, but in the. And he heals the lame man, and that man has been there for decades. And there was, I'm sure a lot of people who were there for decades.
Um, but the, the differences, and it's the same experience with your story here, which is where the parallel is. The knowing that he asked him a question he asked as he w do you want to get well, and then he said, take up your mat and walk. And so you actually. The thing that I am so passionate about, which is activate, you actually activated.
And you said I'm willing to release this thing that is comfortable. This thing that has been my baby, this thing that is multitudes of people's lives and hearts, and even walks with God. Right? I'm sure there's a component when you're a pastor that you feel responsible for their connection to God, even though it's not your responsibility, you've been carrying it regardless.
Um, and so I just, I honor you in that massive transition. And I know from being in it myself, that there is a secular, uh, heaviness that comes to stepping into places like we are, but then there's this light, light burden and this peace and the knowing that when you do so, um, and I want to unpack this five fold ministry understands.
Deeper when you do so in that gifting, it remains in ease. Doesn't mean it's not hard work doesn't mean that you're not faced with attack. Doesn't mean that people don't question your character or your intention. I get in this all the time, especially right now. And so I'm curious, um, based on wisdom and needing this insight from you and I'm, I'm selfishly asking.
Stay in that understanding of alignment and that peace and that light burden, um, in everything that you're doing on a consistent basis right now. But, you know, there's a difference between like doing good works and doing God works. You know, I mean, if you want to have a way to talk about them differently, it's knowing what, like Jesus, you know, only Dale really saw the father do.
And so it's always looking for. You know, just make sure you have peace on the thing that you feel like he's telling you to do, because we get excited about stuff like there's, I mean, you know, you're, you're an entrepreneur, so there's already like 1,012 things that you want to do today, uh, to take on the world that you can't do that.
Um, and so what is the one thing that, what is the next thing that God's what, you know, what is he telling you today? What do we need to focus on for this season and unders you know, because a lot of times, like, you know, I mean, I've gotten so confused, like in pregnancy, they call it false starts, you know?
And, and it's like, you feel like this is the thing that God's called me to, and it lasts for six months. And then this is the thing, you know, I'll ask for five years and then this is the thing, you know, I'm going to know I was wrong on all those times. And we don't realize we're just building chapters into our lives.
Which is building like this puzzle, you know, each is a piece and it's going to culminate in this puzzle, but, but it's not culminating in an end. It's culminating in a beginning. So it's, it's like there's these pieces that he gives us over the course of 15, 20 years, uh, when we are first called and then later on, when we're ready, we get committed.
And we can't mistake our calling for our commissioning because when we do that, we, you know, we run out like Abraham, it's like, oh, I've got this promise. I'm going to fulfill it. We create an Ishmael and we ended up creating a lot more problems for ourselves. So, you know, it's really just about asking the Lord, like what's for now and like, and understanding the difference between like grace and like, uh, just burning out because, because I didn't burn out in ministry.
Like I knew, I knew that I was going to hurt myself if I didn't put the church down, but I knew that it was a grace that was lifting it. I wasn't actually tired of ministry. I could have kept, I never skipped a beat on ministry. I'm like, Lord, well, w what are you going to do now? And, um, and he just wanted me to say, well, right now, you're good.
You know, just set this aside. And, uh, you still, I see you still got energy. You still got vision. You still got passionate and drive. That's great. Be patient and then we'll move you into the next thing, you know? And so, yeah, so sometimes, you know, sometimes we're burning out because we're doing the things God has not told us to do.
Or we did them past when he told us the day, then, uh, we just got to recognize, you know, how to partner with his grace in whatever, whether it's pastoring or business or whatever. Yeah, I think that's so powerful. And I think there's that alignment piece. Right? And as you were dropping that, that corner, um, or, or Jesus was dropping that corner and you're sitting there like jolted by that, right?
There's this whole alignment piece I'm thinking of the chiropractor and understanding that we will, we will sacrifice, oh man, we will sacrifice to keep the thing that we think God wants for us in that seat. Because if we are doing quote unquote, good works, we feel like there's a reason why, why would we let this go?
This is a good thing. This is served. A lot of people. This has helped a lot of people. And at the end of the day, we are depraved, overwhelmed, stressed, you know, not pouring into the places that we need to pour into our families, our own, um, health and wellness. And so I think that. So many conversations that you can unpack in that.
And I think that it's really, um, it's really wise and just noble and understanding that, um, if we stay surrendered in that understanding of grace, we don't feel like it's in our hands to control. Right. Like, I think that's been one of my biggest life lessons is understanding that I'm not in control. I never was.
I never will be. I think I am. I think I can write the little engine that could, and, and without his energy, without his source, without his, like me being a conduit, I can't, I could add all the coals to the fire and it still wouldn't do anything. It wouldn't burn. Yeah, absolutely. So talk to me about bi-fold labs.
I'm so excited to hear more about the di the depths of this and how serv, um, parallels to it. Okay. So when we talk about five-fold ministry, Um, it comes out of Ephesians four, chapter four verses 11 through 16. And it says that, uh, it tells us that crisis ended. And when he did, he gave gifts to men, to the church.
Um, and these gifts are possible prophet shepherd of angel, shepherd and teacher. Um, and there's, there's kind of an order to it, but not in order of importance, just an order of order, just, uh, how the framework gets created. And I won't go into all that right now, but, um, So he gives these five gifts as equippers to the church to equip the saints, to do the work of a ministry.
But a lot of times, um, all the pastors and leaders in churches, burnout, we're trying to do all the work rather than being equippers, uh, of the saints doing the work of the ministry. And so really most people aren't really called to like, like everyone's called to be , but not everyone's called to be an apostle, which isn't a.
Um, so parcels equip the whole church to be epistatic profits, the whole church to be prophetic, et cetera. Um, but with each gift comes like a lens, which creates a value system, which creates an emphasis, um, which creates a culture in a church. And so I can usually talk to somebody for about five minutes and I can tell you whether they go to a church that's led by a teacher or an evangelist or an apostle or a prophet or.
Because of the things that they emphasize. If they're, it's not like, man, I'll tell you, it's all about love. God love people and you gotta be in relationship and you gotta have your marriage. Right? Well, they've been sitting under a shepherd for a long time because they build healthy relationships and healthy communities and they make the gospel very practical and simple and they bring it down to this level.
The day-to-day, you know, ABC 1, 2, 3 steps to a happy, healthy marriage and all that, you know, whereas if they're like, if you gotta be in the word, if you're not reading the word, you don't know the Greek, the Hebrew. They're sitting under a teacher. And so teachers turn churches into classrooms. Whereas a shepherd, a pastor, pastor shepherd, uh, will turn a sanctuary into a living room because they'll want it to be lived in and feel very comfortable and relaxed.
Uh, whereas an apostle gets a hold of one, they say, okay, this is bootcamp. And. You're uh, you're in training and this is going to be crazy. And I'm sending you out as lambs, among wolves. And, uh, the people who've been sitting at the shepherds are like, I'm waiting in this church. I to do that, why would I want to do that?
But it takes, so it takes all five to get fully quit, to get well-rounded all the tools you need, all the training and to have a Firefall framework that you are thinking and operating. I love that. So do you think then based on being a coach yourself and knowing the power of coaches and mentors that have had in my life, that everyone needs all five in their life, like a person that's in that vicinity in order to pour into them, are they, if they're one, do they only need four?
Like how does that work? Yeah, I think everybody, I mean, I think apostles needed other apostles and prophets need other profits and they reproduce themselves and such, but. Yeah, the Bible says in Ephesians four, and I come back to that passage for like a million different answers, but yeah, the Bible. How about that?
And then basically it says these five are given to cook the saints for the work of the ministry, et cetera. And so if five were given to do that, and we're only operating under on three of them or two or most cases, one. Then we're not being fully equipped. We're all getting a piece. And anytime, you know, when you put a puzzle together, you dump all the pieces out and you set the box up next to you.
So you can see the picture. So you know what you're building and you build out that framework. And when you're looking, you've got the framework and you've got the puzzle box, the whole picture, which is Jesus. If you, if you don't have that, then you're going to pick up your puzzle piece and you're going to think it's all about your people.
You're going to see everything through this blue piece, which is shaped a certain way. It only fits this way. And so, you know, a lot of, in other words, a lot of churches and ministries and movements, discount anything. That's not like them because they're not operating within a framework that takes all five into consideration.
So I sat like this. Um, If you think about Russian nesting dolls, you know what they are, the Russian like the, they fit inside.
I think these things are so new. I always thought they were the kid. And, um, and if you look at those, you know, from the tallest to the shortest, if you take the middle one, you can, you, you can fit that inside this one and this one, but it won't fit in the, in the two smaller ones. You can take the one, the smallest one that'll fit in, in any of them.
But you can't fit any of the others inside of it. So there's only one that's big enough for all the others to fit inside and in the church, that's the apostolic gift, the app. Well, Jesus started the church. He started with 12 apostles. He actually, he didn't start it with profits and shepherds and teachers and stuff.
They did come, they emerged out of the church, but he started out with the possibles because it made room for all the others. It's a framework that it's not just looking at what's going on inside the church. Or even how to get people saved outside the church. It's looking for, how do we make nations flourish with the gospel of the kingdom that makes room for business owners?
It makes work a room for moms, for mechanics, for a script writers and Hollywood filmmakers and suddenly there's room. And when we talk about the work of the ministry, it's not just what, it's not what happens behind the pulp, but as much as it is, what happens to the people when they got into the market.
Oh, my goodness. I love this. And that analogy will never leave my heart. Now that every time I see this, because it's so powerful and so simple at the same time, one of the people listening have the question, can a profit thrive under a pastor shepherd, not so slash shepherd. Um, well, you know, uh, there are some of the books that I've read on the prophetic or written by, well, he might've been an apostle, but he was a very shepherding.
So it really comes down to whether or not the shepherd understands the prophetic. And, um, and, and so if they understand, if they understand that world, then they can help to nurture that in that person. Um, because the thing about our profit is that a true. It tends to be naturally gifted in the prophetic, but when they're not trained, they just can create a lot of messes.
And, um, because it's like, you, you know, I remember, uh, uh, one pastor used to tell an apostle used to tell him this prophet, is it just, don't say everything you see on the screen, you know, because, because our guests. For a profit and gifts far outweighs their maturity in the beginning. You have to grow into that and know how to manage what God's given you.
Uh, so yeah, it can happen. It just, um, and that's part of what I'm I, I try to do is help pastors understand when you've got prophetic people in your church. If you don't know how to serve and lead them and build a culture that affirms and embraces and cultivates their gift and that ministry in the church, then you're just going to have a lot of frustration.
This is really interesting to me. I ha I understand the five administrative and taught it. Um, and I kind of can tin parallel to the things that need me and I can point people out, but I've never thought about how they all correlate in the working, um, framework together and, and the importance of that.
And so, um, I definitely want to like dive deeper into that. Experience, whether through a book you written, I have you authored your book on this yet because you're going to, I'm 80 to 90% done on it. I'm working on it. It's super intriguing. And I do think, like you said, there's so many layers just to the verses alone and then understanding every single one.
And then how you can even sharpen those specific tools and how you serve other people through them. Um, I know we had a brief conversation. We were like, I want to talk to you about the app style gifting and I'm like, tell me more. And so I think that there's, I think there's such beauty to every single, um, every single one of the gifts, obviously God, their God made.
So of course there's intention and purpose. And then, um, do you find similar to, um, Leadership teams or different personalities that there's a, um, uh, a combat between any of them. Uh, to some degree, uh, there can be because, uh, because whatever their gift is, they have a lens that they see through and that creates their value system and their value system is what saying, well, this is most important.
So for the evangelist and most of most believers, most churches have been more influenced by the value system of the evangelists than any other. The evangelists says, the, the only real thing that's important is that somebody gets saved. And while that is immensely important, it's part of the gospel, you know, but the gospel, so it's not, so Jesus isn't having us preach.
The gospel of salvation is having us preach the gospel of the kingdom, which includes salvation, but it doesn't stop. There just begins. You know, and it goes on to touch nations and, and, and free people and, and unlock potential and, and, um, stabilize whole economies and form healthy government. I mean, all of the things that we're dealing with today is a lack of Jesus being fully present in the world, through the saints, equipped by the fivefold, you know?
And so. I mean, I get so excited as you're talking about the expansion phase. Like you start here with the one and then it goes bigger and bigger and bigger. And that kingdom view, uh, is definitely where I love to stay. And probably why I have 1001 things to do today. Like you talked about earlier. And I think that that's like a, it keeps my adrenaline high.
It keeps my energy high, keeps my expectancy high. Um, pretty much in the, in the knowing that like, God could never. Because I've got all of these things in front of me and it's just one of them thrives. It's going to be amazing. But in the process, I have so many ideas that I feel like are birthed from, um, my prayer life and, and birds from my, my vision cast.
Jesus quick commercial break. I know I hate these things too, but it's so critical that you grow your business for God's sake. And I mean, that pun intended with all the love in my heart to get you from a place of ideation to activation, stop dreaming, start doing stand ups, start saying yes to the call that God has on your life.
We are going to be joining in Lexington, Kentucky with none other than the beautiful rise and grind community with Glen Lundy, who will. We're hosting this incredible conference. This is the second annual, and he has taken me under his wing to be able to share the stage to motivate and inspire. And I cannot wait to see you there November 5th through the seventh.
If you want to come in for the VIP experience or two doesn't want to come along for VIP, that's all access passes to the speakers and the artists, and you will be able to dine with us in the private rooms with your own special bathrooms. So of course, come one day, two day, three day passes available. And we can not wait as good.
And I say to hug your neck, see you there. How do you, um, how do you help people sharpen in those areas? And is that a thing that's really just done in the equipping, uh, with the word and in prayer, or can you actually, as a coach and consultant, help them thrive in those. Yeah. So, I mean, like in the past, uh, so for instance, you know, um, now I'm not a prophet, but for instance, like a profit should be, uh, teaching people how to hear God, how to recognize the voice of the Lord.
I had one friend who he believed he was an apostle, a prophet, a teacher, and I think a shepherd. So like he almost didn't need anybody else if that were true chicken pony, but he, you know, he. He told me one time you said, you know, we're the voice of God to the people. And I said, no, we're not. I said, I said, we are called to help people hear God for themselves.
And so discipleship in the church is supposed to be, when people come to us, we teach them how to follow the holy spirit. You know, we keep passing them off, making them disciples of them, not Decembers of us. Um, and, uh, I think I forgot your question. I think it's really good. I feel like it answered. Yeah.
So like we used to do a prophetic workshops all the time. Um, and so in a prophetic workshop, I teach about how God speaks, how you can hear him. And then as I start teaching, they have people go, oh, that was. And they start remembering all these times when God was speaking to them, but they didn't have a grid to realize he had been talking.
So, so they've already had this relationship. I'm just like affirming it. Um, and then we have them get up and they practice giving, you know, hearing God, God, what are you saying to this person sitting next to me or that person over there? I don't know. You know, what do you, what do you want to speak out in our life?
What do you want to affirm? Um, what do you want to give them a higher perspective on? And then we let them literally cross the room and say, Hey, can I share this with you? And we just have all kinds of ways that we've been developing out it out for over 10 years now, but you can do that with the apostolic gift, the prophetic gift teaching, et cetera.
Churches need to move from doing to equipping. And that's what I want to help more with. That's incredible now, uh, from a perspective of, of the thriving in the marketplace piece, knowing that churches can simultaneously exist in the marketplace, right? Like there's, there are, people are a part of that and, and the industries and institutions and everyone that they're equipping is going into that space.
And so how. Um, cause we share this heartbeat so much. How can we be? Um, equippers of the people from a secular realm and, and in our faith and helping them establish in the church and then established in the, in the world. Like it's, it's gotta be this symbiotic experience. That's it's not pulling or detracting from one or the other, but instead embracing both.
Well, like for pastors, they need to recognize that. That their job is to equip people for being out there for being outside the church. And the goal is not to suck everybody in teach us. Take care of the children or sing in the choir. Like those are all good, fine things. Someone's got to do it. But, um, but people, people not only have permission to be in the marketplace.
The people in their churches are actually being sent by God, to the marketplace and a lot of people. And so a lot of that has to do with learning how to pastor people, where they are, instead of telling them, Hey, you need to leave that or. Or it's like, um, it's like affirming what their work is without having to overly Christianize it, you know, like, um, well, do you have a Bible study at work?
Was anybody getting saved? Well, if none of those things are happening, then how can they, and it, we have to recognize the value in it, of itself that just providing, I mean, like what you're doing with coaching, I mean, immense value. I think, I think many people, especially people. Who are in their fifties, sixties, even seventies, maybe, maybe eighties, um, that have been in the workforce a long time.
That, I mean, just out in the world, working, I believe most of those people, God would have them transfer over to being consultants. Uh, essentially discipling people as they're teaching them about whatever their industry is that they have experienced in skill. And the other aspect would just be.
Understanding that, that Christians actually have an advantage out in the world that the world doesn't have a, we have the holy spirit. Um, and so like when we were like, we were doing training as part of the servant initiative and I was actually teaching people on the prophetic, I didn't, I don't think I told them that's what it was at first.
Um, because sometimes people are leery of that. That's awesome. I was teaching them how to hear God about that. Personal influence that they're meeting with and how to speak life and identity to them. And that when you do that, it not only affirms that person, their identity in God and their calling, whatever they're doing, it builds the relationship.
And then you garner favor with that person for doing, for serving them, not for, not for manipulating them, but for serving them, uh, which is what we're called to do. And. Serving as the way back, you know, the way the church gets back out into society, you know, we can't come in and dominate. We have to get under in CERN.
That is incredible. And I think so needed. I mean, so, so needed a lot of times people think when they're in the marketplace, that everything is an exchange, that everything has a value component, right. And while there's an exchange of energy or there's an exchange of affirmation, or there's an exchange of love, a lot of times marketplace is, is guised by only money.
Right. And I think that's where we as coaches or, um, Christian, anything. Uh, no matter what your job title is, that there is this blanketed understatement of, I can't, I'm not gonna pay you for that because now you're taking your gift that is freely given by God and you're monetizing it. But when we look at it from a place of service and we look at it from a place of love, and we look at it as a place of equipping.
It is free. I, how much of a day is spent just serving, loving, caring for other people without ever asking for a dollar. This podcast does that it's been doing it for years and I've never monetized it. Have I gotten coaching clients from it? Yes, but I've never said, give me a dollar to hear this wisdom, right.
And so I'm curious what, what insight you give to people? Because I know it's one of the biggest plague, uh, church mindset, money, mindset, problems that I deal with every single day as a coach, even as I'm trying to curate a Christian conference. Right. They're like, you can't pay for that. And like, well, how do you expect me to get the lights and the sound and the tables?
Like where does that money come from? I'm super picky. So much of that comes actually out of a poverty mindset. It comes out of poverty thinking and we, we don't realize it. I mean, the only person that really complained that I could think of in the gospels about, um, the only meant being spilled is the one who was stealing from the, you know, it's like even he was taking it from self.
I'm not saying the church is doing it, but just. There's a poppy mindset that says there isn't enough money to go around that, that if, if we make money, then that is robbing it from the poor or from missions or from something else. And it's just not true. It's just not the way things work. There's. In the kingdom, the kingdom has a different economy to it.
Um, in Jesus tried to show that from things like pulling a coin out of a random fish's mouth and multiplying, you know, fish and loaves, and I've heard of some churches where a flaming yarn was actually multiplied, they would pray. And, and I'm
just kidding about that, but like that actually happened. And so there's more than enough. And, um, and I think it's important. I'm not saying like all Christians should be rich or anything like that, but it, but it's important that the church be able to lavish God's love even through money or material, you know, uh, things on the world, on people, on other believers.
Um, I believe that God wants us to four-ish and it doesn't happen, but. Just either throwing money away or not receiving something, uh, for, for the work that we're doing. Um, that is how, like when you spend money, you're, you're saying this is the value that I place on who you are. I recognize what God's giving you, what God's done in your life and how that is impacting me.
And that's a big deal. And so, um, so people don't value anything that they don't spend money. You know, and, um, and I've seen that play out in a lot of different ways. So, so I think that's important. I think we need it. Yeah, I think that's, it's really interesting. And also something, even from a church perspective and a pastoral perspective and a house perspective, right?
Like if I have a house I have to invest in certain maintenance and I think where you come into play, that's so powerful is that you are providing. To that house, right. To that church. And people think that everything is interior. Oh, we can do that. Right? Like, oh, I know somebody inside that can do that. My brother-in-law will come and build the pergola.
I don't need to hire the pergola. And in the pergola falls and knocks out the front window and all the things, right. Because it's not done to the caliber that it needs to be done for a sturdy foundation. And so you are literally coming in. Expert, which is where the investment piece comes into play. And you're saying, Hey, I've been studying this for 20 years.
Let me help you build the pergola. Let me help you restructure the foundation. Let me help you see with a different lens, what you could be working on more, equip, more better here. Encourage here, love here. Right? Um, and so. I think that it's incredible. I think that it's hard work because being recognized in that realm is people don't get and they think it's a disguise and they think that you're the Wolf in sheep's clothing.
And it's a really interesting and treading water to constantly be mindful of. But I think the biggest thing that you said that I'll take away. Everyone should take away is knowing that we as Christians carry and, and how's the holy spirit. And therefore everywhere we go, including into quote unquote church and into our workforce or down the road, down the street, right.
Is the knowing that he proceeds us into those locations. And that is by our faith. But additionally, by our action that he shows up. Uh, and so it's, you could stand fearful behind maybe a good website or behind a good podcast and never actually knock on the door. But I think it's really important for us.
Um, and I'm speaking to myself right now. I can feel the eyes of Morgan staring into my soul right now is that we have to get better and more competent at doing the knocking because without knocking, they'll never know that we even exist. Yeah. So tell me how you, how do you publicize? How do you do, how do you knock?
You know, it doesn't matter who I'm meeting with. I'm asking the same question. I'm asking myself, I'm asking God, I'm asking them, how can I serve you? That's the thing I'm looking for. And so if I'm meeting with a pastor, I'm a, I'm trying to figure out how I can serve. Um, because I know, I know what the five-fold unlocks.
I know what this framework on locks. And I believe that like, for instance, most churches, I believe most churches are operating at probably around 2015, 20% of who they are, what they could be doing, um, for a number of different reasons that we've discussed. And so, in other words, there are, there are caps, there's a limit.
On on like, kind of on their identity, like their awareness, their identity, um, what the saints of the church could be doing out in the marketplace. I mean, when you realize. Like take like a church of like, you know, 50 people. And, um, and imagine if there's 50 people, they knew who they were, they were fully equipped, fully trained.
And then they had the affirmation of the leadership to go out into the marketplace and to serve people in the name of the Lord and the impact and the results that they would have, like Jesus size. Like impact. Do you realize that church would be thriving? Like people just saying, like, how do I get this?
I want this. Um, and, uh, like, Like I saw this. Uh, do I have time to tell you a quick dream? I have, so number like a few years into the church, I had this dream where there was a, I was in the neighbor's yard and there's his fence. And I'm inside looking at this tree, big tree inside the fence. And in the dream, these people are climbing over the fence to get to the tree whenever they got to the trade in the standard of the branches and they would start floating up into the branches and they would pass through all these branches.
And when they came up the. They were being fired out like arrows or missiles, like all over the world into their assignment. Like whether it was geographically or institutionally, they were being shot into their assignment. So they were getting, when they came to the tree, they were getting a quit. That was, and so the Lord was talking to us about kind of like our, our mission or ministry to put the saints for the work of ministry, but I'm watching them climb over the fence.
And I'm looking in the dream and there's a gate like over here and I'm like, why don't they just use the gate? And I went, this is where they just wanted to keep doing that. And they were coming over one after another real fast. And I said, why don't they use the gate? And the Lord spoke to me. And he said that people are trying to basically come into the kingdom and get equipped for their assignment.
And they're not going to come in the traditional ways. And. And I told the person, the people sending you next to me in a dream, I said, we have to build a gate right there where the people are coming in. And so, so there are people that are trying to get, get. Um, there are even people out in the world that are, that are already like in the place of their assignment, doing what God made them to do.
And they're not even Christians yet. And imagine the churches, imagine Christians, believers, pastors, et cetera, coming on them and saying, God made you to do that. And affirming like who they are and they're crushing it. And then like, we're going to show you how to take this to the next level. You know, we're not just going to tell you how to get more saved on Sunday.
Like we're going to just lead you, you know, we'll help introduce you to Jesus. We're going to get you feel the holy spirit. And then we're going to show you what it looks like to bring the gospel of the kingdom to your industry. You are going to, you're just going to blow it up and the re and in the church.
We tend not to, uh, feel like we're allowed to shine. Like we're not allowed to have like a gory on us. And we don't realize that the way that God designed the kingdom and all of this to operate is just like a father out in the stands at a football game. He's watching the sun with the winning touchdown running he's at the 40, the 30, the 20, the 10 boom touchdown.
The father jumps up and he says, that's my son. And when that happens. So when, when the glory of God has seen on us, he gets glory. You know, people looked at that's what happened with Joseph? When he was standing before Pharaoh, he, he tells Pharaoh how to solve the problem. He said, who's your dad. He was like, that's the next, that's the next thing he asked?
And he was like, who who's your father? You know? So, uh, so there's something powerful about that. And as I just, I thought, and I tried to serve people. Whether it's a girl at a fast food place, uh, or a pastor or business leader. Um, we all have a lot of the same basic needs, identity, affirmation. I mean, the things that you speak to all the time, um, uh, these are the things that people need and when they find that and when they hear God and they know that God loves them and he's their father, they can do anything.
So powerful. I love the expansion concept of, of realizing that the person might actually be walking in their calling. They just might not know the fullness of what that could be or operating in the fullness of the prosperity and abundance factor. Right. The freedom factor of that. And it really does at all.
Stems back to identity and, and, and in my business model that I helped teach people. It's like knowing that if I can't speak and know a hundred percent in the being piece and the identity piece, before we start to cultivate brand or business, we're going to get it wrong. There's going to be a misstep.
And do we get it perfect. Absolutely not because we're always becoming. Shortcomings and every single one of us that we need sharpening in. Um, and we have to be able to know what those are to recognize those pain, recognize those weaknesses, recognize those places that still need ultimate watering from God in order for that to continue to harvest.
But right now it's beneath the surface. However, there are the components, like you said, at the very beginning that just freely come to you and people think that those are hobbies, or they think that those are just passionate. And so often they're the exact thing that God's asking them to do because it's freely given to you.
You get to give it to other people and it's not by the money. It's by the service. It's no different, different than a musician, right. Who's just naturally gifted. My son, he's naturally gifted at dancing. Singing making people laugh, like how that's going to serve him later. I have no idea, maybe a worship leader.
That's my mama heart desire, but I can't pin hole that I can't pigeonhole that. But what I can do is I can call that out in him every single day. I see this talent, I see this gift. I see how it lights you up when you do this for other people. And so I think we get to do that. And that's what being a mentor, a coach, a consultant.
Things is really allowing us to do, but at the end of the day, you can take away all of those titles. And then one title that matters most is child of God, brother, or sister in the kingdom. And as a brother or sister, I want to see the people in my family thrive. Right? I want to see them ignited. I want to see them living in their purpose because guess what happens when they're in their purpose, I get to taste the fruit of their tree.
Right. And they get to pass it freely and say, Hey, look, what's happened in my life because I'm a boy. Because I know who I am because I know whose I am. And so that's what Joseph did. And then he literally got to give grace mercy and food, the fruit to his brothers who originally outcast him. It's bananas.
It, it always comes back full circle. If you feel like you're living in a place that this is not the story that is yours. Oh man. I'm sure that between the two of us, we could go into so many storylines to be like, actually read this. Right. Um, it's been. So good to unpack all of this. And I know that you have so much more bubbling inside.
Are there any specific areas that you want to be sure to touch on before we close out today's podcast? I know this won't be the last time that we share with the community together. I dunno. Uh, just that, um, you know, it, it all it's Jesus is, you know, he's the he's, I don't refer to him as the final revelation.
Because the Lord talks to us about stuff all the time, but he's the central revelation. And I think the distinction, I see like a ripple effect where Jesus is the very center and summary of everything God's doing, but it's like, it's like, I see this ripple effect of like, what's coming. Like my relationship with God and yours was meant to change the world.
It's supposed to come out of that place of where, you know, I'm living with him, I'm dialoguing with him, I'm following him. And, um, and the world has seen so few people, like actually, like they may kind of see their calling there, you know, from a distance, but they don't step into it. And it's a journey and we've got to, we just have to realize that God's trying to get.
To, to the starting point. You know, I heard a friend of mine had a dream and he said, uh, that he saw these people approach him. They've been running for a long time and they were approaching what they thought was the finish line and they're crossing it and they're starting to slow down. And he said, they, what the problem is, they didn't realize it was, it wasn't.
The finishing line was actually the starting line. And so people that were even older, um, had been doing this for a while and they didn't realize that they were just about to get started. Other if we were talking about before God is building those chapters into our lives, through our various seasons challenges, successes, failures.
And for me, I'm just trying to learn to fail faster. Uh, Graham Kirk is a prophet in modern day prophet and he says that, um, what we call making mistakes? God calls. And so I'm just trying to fail faster because there was a time in my life where I didn't want to do anything cause I was afraid of failure.
And now I realize the grace of God that he has for me, that he wants me to just do it. Am I just trip a lot? Yeah. Fall on my face, trying to, uh, do what he's called me to do and he'll order my steps and he'll get each one of us there. And I think the cool part about that is knowing that like in those failures, your identity is not shook, right?
Like you're still, you're still a child of God. You're still worried. Still you're a silly quit and you're still all of the things that God calls us. And it's just the knowing that those seasons, those chapters are what is going to propel us into that beginning. And I love looking at it from that perspective, because I know when I die, it's not over.
Right. Like we know that right. The it's the beautiful component of, of what we know to be true. Um, living at the right hand of God in heaven. And I get to celebrate my Nana this weekend for her celebration of life. And she was such a God-fearing woman. And, um, and yet she didn't unlock a lot of what we're talking.
On this side of, of earth on heaven, this side of heaven on earth. And, um, it, it saddens me, but at the same time, I know as she's up there looking down, she would just be so, um, proud of, of every little thing. And every little day, as all of her grandchildren are leaning into that identity. Um, and knowing that prosperity is ours for the taking here on this side of heaven.
Um, and so I just, I honor you as the example that you are and honor you that you're, you're saying yes to the hard things and that you're willing to fail in the process. Uh, I'm a recovering perfectionist. I like to say. And so, uh, I, I definitely try so fail. I'm like, it's okay. If it messes up, I'm going to know real quick, what the next best step.
And is that next best step and not a failure? No, probably is. But eventually everything comes into alignment. Just like when you try those puzzle pieces, just like you were saying, you're going to get it wrong a couple of times, and then you're gonna be so excited when it fits in that perfect place. Um, and those are the chapters.
Those are the chapters. It's just like writing a book. I don't remember writing and I have moved so many chapters around having no idea. For sure this is the sequence it was going to become. And now that it's done, it's in total different places. Some of the chapters are completely removed. That's the uprooting process.
We have to do that too. Um, and so all these analogies, I hope bring people I'm understanding in a simple way, and we're so grateful, um, for you to be here and, and provide those to us. Why it's such a great time. I really enjoyed it. I always enjoyed talking with you. So likewise, you guys got to go to five-fold labs.com and you are at your name, correct?
On Instagram. Um, I hope to go, where are we? Where do we find you? LinkedIn? I'm on Facebook and going to Facebook. Um, oh my gosh. We need to have a branding conversation. Yes we do. Yeah, let's do it on Facebook. And I think that, I think even the icon for that is on the way. Awesome. All right. Five fold labs.com.
Five is spelled out you guys, Joseph Perry. You've been such a gift. Thanks again for being here. We cannot wait to see how God continues to bless your life and that of your wife as well. Thanks Tamra. Appreciate you.
Hey, y'all it's me again. I hope in today's episode, you sent an ignite to an Ember within you, something mentally, physically, emotionally, or spiritually moving that creates and sustains a fire within your journey. Before you go, let solidify the flame. I'd love for you to take a step right now and declaring your takeaway by snapping a pic of the episode.
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