• Morgan Hart

Practice Lingering: When An Athlete Slows Down – With Jamie Dockiewicz

We could root ourselves in the identity of what we are best at or we could choose to root ourselves in Who created us to be our best.

There’s a constant push and pull power struggle between expectation, progression, and achievement verses rest and recovery.

So often we find ourselves emotionally and physically compensating, misaligned and sometimes even broken, all because we aren’t taught and we don’t practice the skill of lingering.

I could tell you today’s podcast is with a star athlete, and a William & Mary Alum, who has ran almost 1000 races in her 30 years of track. I could tell you she’s a personal trainer for some of our country’s ultimate protectors. I could tell you she was the nutritionist and fitness guru that flipped an invaluable switch in my own understanding of fitness, working out and the value of being in the kitchen.

But that wouldn’t sum up the identity of this joy giving, passion pursuing, Godly woman of intentionality. You’ve heard it said before “though she be but little she is fierce.” This sums up this mighty wellness warrior.

Get ready, You’re going to want to take notes on this one!

Jamie - Learn to Linger

Linger athlete

Connect with her here:



FULL SHOW NOTES: Practice Linger-ing

Tamra: Welcome, to the fit and faith podcast it is amazing to have you here. It’s been something that I know we’ve kind of pressed on each other’s heart for a while and there’s also like that component of the fear factor of like, what are we going to talk about? Am I ready to get on live anything and do that? But I’ve had such confidence in knowing that having you come on in as a guest was going to be special, not just for me because I love quality time with you, but for the people on the receiving end.

So I’m excited to have you. Mainly because I feel like our friendship has grown in such an organic way over the last few years and it always seems like so perfectly timed and I never know what that’s going to be, but it’s, it’s more of a blooming flower than like an onion because I feel like it’s just another component of we share in our sisterhood as we’ve walked into deeper understanding of who we are. But it’s been amazing to watch you bloom as I bloom. So I love having this season with you.

So you haven’t heard, but this is Michelle laughing and she is not only a dear friend but an up and coming success coach in our area and I’m excited to share that component. It’s not a title that she likes to claim fully yet, but it’s new and we’re excited to share kind of how that evolved and how we got where we are. So I’d love to hear like you just introduce yourself to everyone.

I know, it’s like…….where do I start?

Jamie Dockiewicz: I know exactly. Where do I start? So my name’s Michelle and obviously, she said that already. Should I share my age? I don’t know if that matters.

Tamra: Age doesn’t matter.

Jamie Dockiewicz: I am only like 25.

Tamra: Right! There you go. We need wisdom, we at least have to be 30 here. Okay. We’re 30 forever.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Well, everybody, it’s funny, a lot of people think I’m like in my twenties they say at least 25 a lot of people think I’m in my twenties and I’m like, thanks I think……..

Tamra: Yes, that’s a compliment. It’s the no wrinkles, It’s probably the height that probably has a lot to do with it too. And the braces………

Jamie Dockiewicz: And the braces probably don’t help at all.

Tamra: For those not viewing and just listening. She has braces.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Yes. So I’m a mom. I have a son who is 15 and just started driver’s ed. It’s interesting. It’s a learning curve for all of us. I am a military veteran served in the military for 10 years. One deployment and college gap graduate and I now work for the Navy. When I was in the military, I was in the army and I now work for the Navy as a civilian. And I serve in my church and well actually I’m not serving a whole lot right now because of school.

I’m putting a lot of effort into school, but I’m usually serving pretty heavily in the church. Just trying to pour in other people wherever I can. And then sometimes, actually more often than not, people are reporting it to me instead of me reporting to them.

Tamra: It’s funny how that happens. [inaudible 5:38]. We were just talking about that earlier that you can’t continually pour out, no matter what role you’re in, whether it’s a work role, whether it’s a motherhood role, which we’re constantly pouring out of, there has to be time and space for replenishment. Yeah, it makes total sense. I want to hear, cause I don’t even really know more about your experience in the army. That was like you did that. At what age?

Jamie Dockiewicz: So I joined when I was 19. So my brother was in the army. And hewas in for probably about two and a half years or so. And he passed away from a car accident. And it was a point in my life where I wasn’t doing the best and I was still in high school. I was a junior in high school and, I remember he had come home on leave and he was visiting with us and the accident happened when he was going home.

And the last conversation I remember having with him was him sitting down and telling me that he understands what I’m going through and that he loves me no matter what. But he wanted me to promise him that no matter what, that I would graduate high school and I did not keep that promise. I got into things within the next year where there were a lot of challenges, emotional, physical just a lot of challenges.

And I ended up quitting high school and leaving the state. So about a year or so after that, I got my GED and realized my life was going nowhere and I was like, what am I doing? And I broke my promise. And so I wanted to do something that would make him proud or that I thought would make him proud of me. So I thought, why not try to finish what he started.

Tamra: Wow. That’s awesome. It’s noble, maybe not the best way of reasoning.

Jamie Dockiewicz: But you have no idea. I was like, what did I do? But I am proud of it. Looking back, I am proud of it. I didn’t get to necessarily finished when he started because I only did 10 years.

Tamra: That’s a long time.

Jamie Dockiewicz: It was a long time. I did mostly administration, ministrative stuff while I was in. But at one point not quite about nine months after my son, after I had my son my first Sergeant came to me and my first Sergeant is the highest, almost the highest level enlisted person in a unit. He spoke to me. I had some medical issues at one point and I wasn’t there when he talked to the rest of the unit. So he talked to me personally and told me that basically our unit was being activated and being sent overseas. And I was like, okay, so what does that mean? He said, well……

Tamra: So Facebook live, everyone’s listening and you’re doing this. And I just realized we didn’t record for the podcast. Welcome to the fit and faith podcast, we are now actually starting. And that’s okay because now we’re more comfortable. So welcome Michelle. I love you so much. For those who have already been on listening to us, you’re going to get a little quick round two. And I think now we’re in like this space where we’re gonna be able to share I think more fully. So I’m excited about that.

But I am grateful to have you here. I feel like we have grown into a season of blossoming together. I feel like when I met you, I was definitely a wilted flower and you have always been a friend that stood by me no matter what that looks like. You’ve helped nurture that and you’ve also allowed me to help nurture you and times when you need it. And it’s a beautiful experience to be in a friendship like that because it really, it bonds you in a way that sometimes friendships are always the outpouring we talked about that are constantly pouring out and you never felt fed.

And while it’s okay that you can be fed other places and continuing to pour into other people, when it’s that reciprocal relationship, it’s such a beautiful thing. So I’m thankful to have you in my life and thankful to have you on here to share with other people. Just the genuine piece that you bring when you come to a table when you come to a house when you come to a coffee date. But more importantly, I just think you have this heart for people to see them blossom. And I’m just thankful for that.

So for those who don’t already know, this is Michelle laughing and she is not only a dear friend obviously, but also an up and coming success coach in our area. And she’s done and doing a bazillion things. And so I think just dive right in again, I’d love for you to share, you know, how, how is it you started in the military and you were in for a decade and what did that look like?

Jamie Dockiewicz: So for those who haven’t heard me start this yet, I was actually when I was about 17 years old my brother who was already in the military had joined the military before that had passed away from an accident. And the last conversation that we had, he knew that I was in a difficult season of my life and he made me promise him that I would at the very least graduate high school. And I did not keep that promise. So I ended up quitting high school and moving out of the state.

About a year later, I got my GED and decided that I wanted to do something with my life, which was going nowhere and make him proud. So I decided to join the military. Fast forward a few years had my son I had started when I first joined, I joined the reserves. So I was only doing like weekend duties. But you know, it’s the military.

Tamra: I didn’t know you could do that as an enlisted (inaudible 12:14).

Jamie Dockiewicz: It’s either reserve or active. So I had our, our unit had our weekend duty and I had some medical things going on. It was it was crazy. I had was having these pains in my side like all day, the one day and I, I, we was at the unit and I couldn’t figure out what it was. At first, I thought it was a cyst. because I use to have uterine cysts.

So I thought a cyst had ruptured cause it felt similar. Very, very similar. Yeah. And eventually, they were like, well, you need to go home. Just, just go home and rest. So it was getting ready to get my car and I threw up and I said, wait a second this is not a cyst, what is going on? So I went around their emergency room, turns out I had a kidney stone.

Tamra: I was thinking (inaudible 13:02-3 ), cause that’s what happened to me.

Jamie Dockiewicz: That’s what they thought. So they did the cat scan, it turns out that it was a kidney stone. So I was at home the next day recovering from that and I get this call from my first sergeant and he told me everything that he told the company that basically that we were being activated and when I’m trying to figure out, okay, well what does that mean for me? It means that I’m going to go to Kentucky. Meanwhile, I was in Ohio, I’m gonna go to Kentucky and I’m going to learn how to drive trucks because we’re going to go to Iraq and we’re going to transport fuels from base to base.

Tamra: Wow.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Mind you. My son, whom I had was only nine months old. By the time we were leaving, after I got the training and about time we were ready to leave for Iraq. He was, he might’ve been going to take them back. He might’ve been about 10 months old at that time. But he was passed a year old by the time I left. The military has this policy that will not deploy a mother until their child is at least a year old. So I was still eligible to go because he would be a year by the time I left.

Tamra: And you were in a stable home at that point?

Jamie Dockiewicz: Partially.

Tamra: Okay. But dad had him at this point?

Jamie Dockiewicz: No. I had him full time at this point. His dad and I were not together, so I thought it was only appropriate. He had only met his dad once before that, before me finding out that I was being employed, then we got more interacted. Cause his dad was living in another state at the time. So it was, it was difficult. So he went while I went to my training, he went to go stay with his dad during that time and then he went while I was in Iraq to state with his dad and stuff. And after I came back, well first off that deployment was whew.

I was an emotional hot mess the entire time between stuff that I had struggled with from my life before the military and stuff I dealt with while I was in the military. It just anxiety, depression, anger, everything. And the deployment didn’t help anything. And then during the deployment, I believe it was February timeframe, early 2016 driving down the road on our mission and an IED went off on my vehicle. I happen to not be driving a field truck that day. I was driving a flatbed and with some food supplies and stuff like that. So it was definitely, holy cow…………..

Tamra: That was 2016?

Jamie Dockiewicz: No, excuse me, 2006.

Tamra: Oh my gosh. I was like, wait (inaudible 16:17)

Jamie Dockiewicz: I’m so sorry. So pre 2011 I was thinking like that was when that happened. This was before then 2000, 2001 I’m sorry. Yeah

Tamra: We are all confused. 2001, 9/11 2001

Jamie Dockiewicz: So actually I joined the military after nine 11.


Okay. That puts in perspective.

Jamie Dockiewicz: I didn’t know. I didn’t understand what I was doing. Plus the recruiter told me that because I was going in as an admin, I would never go to go overseas.

Tamra: Yeah, of course, they lie.

Jamie Dockiewicz: For anyone wanting to join the military. They lie about everything. So ask people that have been in the military. Wow.

Tamra: Okay. Check one. Done. So here you are. You have gone through this by multiple things. The Sergeant tells you you’re gone, you’re gone, you’re dealing with anxiety, depression and any of the other underlying currents that had occurred before in your life. And this happens. What do you do?

Jamie Dockiewicz: I mean initially like I just was like, I was in the passenger and then there was somebody driving and the thing went off and first, so the military, after the first couple of years of the world realized they needed to protect their people more. So they came up with this equipment that would protect the vehicles. So I happened to be in a very protected vehicle and it was a very small idea.

I understand it was a 16 millimeter round. I mean it’s not like a little shirt. It was a big fireball right in front of us, but it wasn’t severe damage. Neither one of us got hurt. Thank you, Jesus. But like both of us looked at it and I was like, are you okay? Are you okay? All right, let’s go. Cause he driving like, that’s what we did.

It was just an instant like a rush of, Oh my God, just keep your eyes real. And we just kept going and get going. Mind you, our vehicle did not have any type of capability to communicate with any other vehicle. We had no radio communications. Our unit only had a certain number of them and because we were in a convoy, they would have only certain which every so many would have some kind of ratio.

Tamra: That’s crazy.

Jamie Dockiewicz: So we didn’t have anything. There’s a little like thing on the doors so you could open it and like reach out. So I’m reaching out the little hole in the door to give a thumbs up to let them know we’re okay and we keep driving. And we Probably about 15 minutes or so from actually from the destination we were going to.

It wasn’t that far from the base that we were going to which end.

So we get to the base and there’s a car, you know, there are vehicles in front of us. They get through, we’d get to the gate and we get ready to drive through. Vehicle shuts down completely and we’re like, Oh my God. Apparently, some trap Nall from the IUD had gotten through the engine and hit something and caused the engine to shut down. But it wasn’t until literally, we were at the gate.

Tamra: Oh my goodness.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Talk about like, I don’t even know how to explain it. I was so grateful that that’s what happened because otherwise if that vehicle had stopped anywhere before that we would’ve been sitting ducks. We would’ve been sitting ducks.

We would have been, we would have had to have people surround our vehicle to get out and protect us with their weapons. Otherwise, what happens is if you end up have the idea to do ID is you catch one vehicle, people get out and then they end up attacking. I was so glad it didn’t have to isolate. Some people lose their lives, lose their limbs and whatever. And so I’m so grateful it wasn’t that bad.

Tamra: So traumatic nonetheless.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Yes.

Tamra: Yes. did you ever deal with PTSD from that scenario or not really?

Jamie Dockiewicz: Not necessarily. Like I don’t think it, sometimes it didn’t fully hit me and I think it’s more of a, like we were okay, so it wasn’t that bad. It should sometimes I get startled from loud noises, but that’s it. And then I get ringing in my ears sometimes because of that. That’s the biggest.

Jamie Dockiewicz: So fast forward me. What does that look like? Like you, how long were you there?

Jamie Dockiewicz: We were there, so I was in country. They call it in country then or over there. I was in-country for a total of nine months. I had some medical stuff happen towards the end of, usually for the army you’re in-country for all year. Towards the end of that year, I had some medical stuff happen and they sent me home early. So I wasn’t there for the entire time, but I didn’t come home with my whole unit. But there was still a whole process after that and I had been reserved beforehand, so I had a full-time job beforehand. I get home, I don’t have a job now.

Tamra: Interesting.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Typically whit reserves they will, the government has come up with this policy to protect the soldiers essentially, where they’re supposed to hold your job for up to five years after you leave for a deployment. But my son’s father and I had decided we were going to try and be a family and be together. So he had gotten orders to Pennsylvania. He was in the military too, by the way. He had gotten orders to Pennsylvania, which is where all my family, most of my family was.

And I moved back to Pennsylvania. So then I was unemployed for about a month until I was able to find a job. And then once I found a job, I had to reacclimate myself to civilian life. And I’m not oddly like people don’t always realize how much of a transition it is to go from being overseas to coming back to civilian life, whether you’re reserve or active duty. It’s like there’s just so much.

Tamra: I mean, I’m innocent being a child in a home of somebody who that happened to quite frequently that he was deployed. And then even the massive transition when he got out and I have no comprehension of who am I, what am I supposed to do with my life? When that’s all you’ve known. And he was in for 20 plus years, so that’s a whole nother kit and caboodle because he never had a pre-military identity. He only had his growth and identity. So how old were you when you got out?

Jamie Dockiewicz: When I got out, JC would ask me that. I think it was like maybe 32 it’s just 13 when I got out. So it goes maybe 30 10 ish….

Tamra: And your son at that age was now…..

Jamie Dockiewicz: I know, he was born in 2004 if I got into 2013 he was not.

Tamra: Yes. Okay, gotcha. All right, so, obviously, there’s still duration that you guys are in and now and trying to figure out, you’re in reserve for the remainder of that time?

Jamie Dockiewicz: No, after I had gotten a car and my point man, about a year or so later, I went into what they call an active guard reserve program where you pick come activated, you’re like an active-duty soldier, but you work for reservists. So on top of working day-to-day for the army, I’m also doing them one weekend a month.

Tamra: Interesting. Okay. Yes, it’s a lot.

Jamie Dockiewicz: So it was a lot. I can say from my overall, from my experience in the military, there were a lot of challenges and a lot of it was even more challenging because of stuff from my earlier years. It’s not for everybody, but I look back and I can say that it really shaped my life and there were a lot of benefits from it too. I got the school benefits. It got me out of where I was, a position I was in the lifestyle I was living. It got me out of all of that. And if I hadn’t made that choice, I have no idea where I’d be today. So it’s one of those things I would say I don’t necessarily regret it. I don’t, can’t say I enjoyed every minute of it, but I don’t regret it.

Tamra: I feel like a lot of people and you know, speaking from just people that I know anyway, that is an avid like planned way to get out of situations from your childhood. Because the plan’s already there. And often when you’re in any sort of traumatic home life, all you want is to get out and when somebody’s offering you money and they’re offering you a way out and it doesn’t, to you you’re like traveling. Sure. People that I’ve never been around. Sure. Like all of these things knowing, okay, they’re going to pay for my education, all of the benefits to what they propose.

I’d love to know a bit more about that pre-life that pre-military life. Like Whoa, what catapulted you to be to that place other than your brother’s passing. And how has that component, cause I know that’s the ground that I’ve dredged the last three years about like going way back, digging up those roots? Where does that come into play for you?

Jamie Dockiewicz: So I will go all the way back to about the age of 10. I was born in Philadelphia and shout out to Philly.

Tamra: I don’t know why I said who I don’t know anything about Philadephia. She’s very obviously a sports fan

Jamie Dockiewicz: They will always be my Superbowl champions.

Tamra: Love it. Okay.

Jamie Dockiewicz: So I was living in Philadelphia and my mom I guess decided that she wanted to move away, move out of state, so she decided to move us to Ohio. So just all of a sudden my parents weren’t together at the time, but all of a sudden just say, Oh, we’re moving to Ohio. Out of nowhere. I remember driving her driving. She had this big, you know, those big vans, they like those creepy things.

Tamra: Oh yeah. The window shade so long.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Like you could have shoe season and any of the seats that were in the back, they were out and we only had a mattress in the back of the van, and we slept on the mattress during the van. As I look back, I think that’s creepy and unsafe.

That was of our seatbelts and all that matter. No car seat. I’m glad I survived.

Tamra: My mom experienced that as well.

Jamie Dockiewicz: So, we moved to Ohio. I remember transitioning from a couple of different homes probably about three or four times before we settled in one place. My mom was looking at finally buying a house and we were living in an apartment in a bad area and she was working for all the details to work out so we can actually close on the house and move in and everything.

And her and my brother went to the store to get milk and some other stuff and she was robbed at gunpoint. Yeah. she talked to, I guess she talked to the realtor or something like that. They talked to the people that were selling the house and they let us move into the house before everything was finalized. For safety reasons. And so we finally settled there.

Tamra: They wouldn’t do that today.

Jamie Dockiewicz: So we finally settled there and that was, I think I was in third grade. Yeah, it was abouthalfway through third grade. If I remember correctly I was basically in that house until I was 18. You know, normal, typical teenage stuff for the next couple of years or whatever. Until my mom decided she wanted to get remarried.

Tamra: Okay

Jamie Dockiewicz: She had met a man. I’m trying to (inaudible 28:35 ) I don’t know if she’s going to watch this.

Tamra: That’s okay. That’s understandable. I do it every time.

Jamie Dockiewicz: He was young. He was much younger than her. He was closer in age to me than he was to her. But I mean, they seem like they like it. He had seemed genuine, you know, everything was fine and dandy or whatever for a little while. And then at one point things started to shift and basically, he started paying a little more attention than he was before and started touching me in places that he shouldn’t have.

I was 13 when it started. And so I didn’t understand what was going on. I didn’t understand. I mean, I kind of, I think I kind of knew like it wasn’t okay and it wasn’t normal. But I just, I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know what to say. So I held onto it for two years and it kept going for two years until I finally started saying something about it.


And you’ll say something to him or your mom.

Jamie Dockiewicz: I said something to two of my friends who, my close friends, and then I said something to a counselor at school. Once the counselor at school found out child services got involved and they started questioning me. They questioned my mom and him and they questioned my two friends that I said I shared and I guess with all of theemotions and everything that I was going through and not understanding there worth, I guess there were things that I had left out with one or the other.

And so, and back then even like children’s services and research and stuff, they didn’t understand things like they understand things now. So they basically, between that and at one point I just kind of shut down completely emotionally. So they closed the case. And didn’t do anything else.

I remember the night that I, the day that I felt that everything first came out with the counselor and the service got involved. I, when I got home that night I remember going into the house and I was face to face with him and basically, he looked at me and said, I can’t believe that you would lie about me like that and in front of my mom

Tamra: In front of your mom.

Jamie Dockiewicz: And I couldn’t say anything.

Tamra: At this point Your 15, you had no voice.

Jamie Dockiewicz: No. I just, Turn my head away and just went into my room. And that was it. I think one of the things that hurt the most wasn’t what he did to me when I think it hurt the most was that I do not recall ever receiving an apology from my mother. Now where I am now, I can understand that maybe I didn’t necessarily need an apology from her. She wouldn’t have known was happening. But because of all the discrepancies and the stuff with CPS, she didn’t believe me either.

And what, I mean how could she know? How could you, it’s hard. And I know that I have heard people that have gone through even worse than that, and they say their signs or whatever. Yeah. There are signs, but when you’re not, when you’re not already, like understanding what the signs are. you’re not gonna notice them.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Of course not. Yea.

Jamie Dockiewicz: It’s like when someone cheats, there are signs, but you don’t realize their signs are there. You know, so I can’t, I don’t, I don’t blame her.

Tamra: We have a blinded eye towards the one that you love and the situation that you’ve cultivated as right or, you know, perfect or this ideal. And so anything that skews that, if it’s not within that storyline that’s in your mind and hard, it’s really hard to conceptualize as true. Because she could have easily seen signs the whole time and just ignore them because of how you just get on a roll of like normalcy and expectation and it just, it can completely blindside you.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Absolutely.

Tamra: So keep going

Jamie Dockiewicz: And that’s, you know, it took me a long time to come through that forgiveness on that. But when I understand it from her perspective, like she didn’t know. She didn’t know what the signs were. She didn’t understand. And, maybe there was some internal guilt too. I don’t know. Not that it wasn’t her fault

Tamra: I’m sure. I’m sure.

Jamie Dockiewicz: But so, you know, we’re, I know I’m well past that now. It’s not.

Tamra: So you then lived in silence about it for three years, essentially ignored it. Did it stop at that point with them?

Jamie Dockiewicz: It stopped at that point. He was still in the house for a little while after that.

Tamra: I know we have puppies here………(inaudible 33:42)

Jamie Dockiewicz: He was still in the house for a little while after that and then some things happened between the two of them and they did finally split up. But with all of what had happened and we still be in basically, I had never, I never got any help from, I never wore (inaudible 34:00) like, because it got close.

Tamra: Right and after you just dealt with the shame and the guilt.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Right and then starting to get interested in boys and her like that. And that eventually opened up a whole can of worms of me not understanding that that’s not how love is supposed to be, that you’re not just supposed to give yourself to people and that there’s more to it. And you don’t just do it to anybody. And so there was a whole couple of years of just not understanding, not knowing, being with people I shouldn’t have been with and making a lot of mistakes in that regard.

Tamra: Interesting and this is something that we’ve connected on, but maybe not in the same conversation other than saying like, I see you and I get you and I’m so grateful to have you in my life for that. And this is something I’ve surely never shared publicly and I don’t know that you’ve ever shared that story publicly in this manner. So kudos to your bravery first off. And I’m going to mirror that because I think it’s a hard thing to do.

But it’s a really important thing to do because there are so many people listening that have a need to be released from that guilt and that shame and that knowledge, that innocence is something that we should harness as long as we possibly can. And mine was taken from me when I was three. And so you’re, you’re saying this, these stories and about your own life and you know, it just triggers images and flashbacks.

And the while I was really little and I surely couldn’t put even concepts of shame or guilt in my repertoire because I didn’t even know the words. It, it too happens beneath my mom’s nose and she, to this day, you know, just found out recently you know, almost 30 years later. So I only uncovered it about three years ago through really deep counseling and trying to comprehend the actions that I made through my life in similar scenarios of not protecting what God truly believes in, and instills with such authority.

And yet as girls, we don’t have the strength because of how, how sexuality is portrayed, whether it’s through TV, whether it’s through words, whether it’s through magazines or photos. Now, and I’m so grateful that it wasn’t around in the same capacity, but social media what’s expected of us as women. And as a mere three years old to have your mouth covered up in a shushing position and someone who couldn’t even mentally soundly put together what he was doing himself. It’s, it’s disgusting. That’s the word that keeps coming to mind. And I hate to put that word over top of it.

I’m shaking just thinking about it, but It’s okay now, but it wasn’t okay for so long because I didn’t even know why. And you probably didn’t even conceptualize as you continue to give yourself away in that manner. Why is this, why I’m doing it? Why do I keep doing it? Why do I keep putting myself in this situation? Why do I keep allowing myself to like want to feel in this way?

Jamie Dockiewicz: Why do I desire this kind of love so deeply?

Tamra: Right, right. It’s because you never were treated in the way that you were supposed to be. And I had this very high comprehension that to be loved, I had to act a certain way, I was expected to perform. And to this day I just like cringe when I see girls who are way too young to be wearing and talking and acting and receiving love the way that they’re receiving it.

And while my call I know is towards like older women and releasing people from shame and guilt and walking in the light of who they were intended to be, man, does my heart go out to those girls.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Absolutely.

Tamra: And I read this book called sex and a broken culture and it pinpointed exactly to a T all of these problems within our society. And I just one by one started like really recognizing it even, and I’ve said this in a previous episode about like the music that we listen to and how it’s, it’s just constant. It’s constantly there. And if you are constantly living in that space, in that mindset, you are going to become what they’re asking you to become because you don’t have any strength to be anything else.

Jamie Dockiewicz: And you don’t know any better most of the time either.

Tamra: And there’s no, you know, and I don’t fault our parents’ generation for this, but I’ve just really seen it that the whole concept of the birds and the bees First off, just call it what it is, like the sex talk, like this is what’s expected.

This is not allowed. This is why this is when this is how. I never really had that at all. And it was just shut down. Like you’re not allowed to blank. And that was it. Yet I’m craving it. So what do I do?

Jamie Dockiewicz: Yeah. What do I do about it? Are these feelings normal? How do I, how do I process them? How do I control them and knowing what to do, I say no. Right? Is it okay to say no?

Tamra: I didn’t feel like I was supposed to say no. I knew and I was simultaneously living this dual life, which was difficult in and of itself. And where I feel like the concepts of masks in my life and titles started to play into each other was that I was, I was going to a youth camp young life camp because of and young life in general, which is like a kid’s youth group and through high school ministry I was going because of pain that was happening in my household, I was masking what was happening within me.

Everything was always projected. This is the problem and this is a secret. And I made a post today that you are as sick as your secrets, right?

Jamie Dockiewicz: I was just thinking [inaudible 42:27] in your mouth. But like everywhere(inaudible 42:31)

Tamra: I can’t stop shaking cause its overwhelming. But I lived this life of expectation on one end. This is how you want me to act. So this is what I’m going to show you. This is who I am over here, but in secret, this is what I feel like I’m supposed to be doing for, to be loved and somehow the opposite sex who was on the receiving end or the asking end or the pulling you in end. They made me believe that this space was the person I was supposed to be.

They made this space more comfortable than the space of Christianity that was supposed to be my safe harbor. But again, the secrets held me hostage and I don’t, I can’t blame those people anymore, which I did for a very long time because they’re in the same broken culture that I’m in. And their homes were broken just like mine.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Exactly

Tamra: And so here we are, blossoming women and I believe that for the first time in my life. And I think for you, you probably feel the same though. You’ve been past it anymore. Years of comprehension. I value that you have just held tight to what that means to you now.

And it has been an example to me even while being married. And so I know that it’s something that you probably still struggle with.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Occasionally yes. Especially in the context of being a single woman and wanting to be married. Correct. There is a huge dynamic on that end. I’ve been, as of last month technically walking like the celibacy for six years now. I will give you a caveat to that. I had a bit of town, I was seeing somebody last year and there were some challenges where there were some borderlines there. The overall purity was not completely compromised. And I prayed and I had peace with God and he told me that I was not, I did not compromise my integrity. Though I do admit I made some mistakes that, you know, some things that shouldn’t have happened, happen.

And I walked through that forgiveness with him and you know, I’m past that. I’m thankful for that. But most men these days, even Christian men, believe it or not, it’s kind of shocking sometimes. But then again, not really with our culture, but there’s a lot of Christian men even today that just don’t understand and like that I’m human and I should be able to do that. And, and like, okay, that you have every right, but I’m choosing not to and I’m choosing not to because I value myself now when I didn’t value myself before and I understand that I’m worth it, I’m worth the weight and not trying to take that, you know, that statement.

I don’t know who owns that, who first came up with it, but thank you. But yeah, I am worth the wait, I am. And I know a couple of people that waited were virgins, I know someone through someone else who is still a virgin and not married and is almost my age. And then I know someone who just got married about two or three years ago, she was like 32, I think, and stayed a virgin until she was married. And that’s amazing. That stuff is not celebrated out, you know, and you know. (inaudible 46:16 )

Tamra: I got to witness It in two separate scenarios. And actually, I was at wasn’t it both weddings? No, I was at one of the two, but close to the other couple as well. And wow.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Yeah, I mean that’s a lot of self-control. Whether you’ve been experienced too or predisposed certain things or not that takes a lot of self-control.

Tamra: And do you know from their background? What type of household they were raised in?

Jamie Dockiewicz: Yeah, one of them specifically is not a believer that I understand at all, I mean raised Catholic or whatever, but we’re not going to go there. I mean there’s, you know, there’s a lot of controversy around the Catholic can be a whole nother topic and we don’t have time for that. (inaudible 47:00)The other person Was not necessarily brought up in the church but ended up starting to go to the youth group at some point during her teenage years.

And that’s for, I believe it was in college. I could be wrong. She was either late teens or early on in college was going to youth camps and stuff and that’s about, that’s when she began to get her life with art (inaudible). Walk with Christ and everything. So I’m not, I don’t think she had the perfect household, but it wasn’t like it wasn’t terrible. You know.

Tamra: Nobody’s house is perfect I’m trying…..

Jamie Dockiewicz: Nobody’s house is perfect and you know, so even still it doesn’t matter really what kind of lifestyle. I don’t think it was pushed on her. You need to stay a virgin necessarily. And I don’t know much about the other one, but you know, it’s, it’s still amazing to me and come to think about it. I know the third person that I’ve just recently started getting connected with and I haven’t gotten too much involved at all. How their background, how enriched their background is. But yeah. She’s, I think she’s in her mid-twenties and she’s still a Virgin.

Tamra: Well, everyone that I know, they came from a foundationally Christian home, both, both couples, both male and female. And it’s not to say that being Christian versus not being Christian, but I know if you have that biblical understanding of intimacy, it’s so much less about sex. Like, it’s so much less about sex and …..

Jamie Dockiewicz: In to me, you see.

Tamra: Yes! The intimacy Get that into me you see, it’s like,

Jamie Dockiewicz: It’s totally, I didn’t come up with that either.

Tamra: No, no, that’s okay. Yeah, it’s not, it’s neither. It doesn’t matter one way or another. It is amazing and it’s just that I had to comprehend that intimacy while already being married. While already having had sex with my husband before marriage and then having kids with my husband. So imagine untacking, Holy smokes.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Its gonna be even more challenging especially finding out stuff, you know, not finding out but rehash/surfacing things from your past on top of all that. It’s got to be just flat out overwhelming.

Tamra: Well, and I just commend my husband for the place that we’re at now, I know he’s incredible.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Can you clown him for me, and just make him a little darker.

Tamra: There you go. I want to clone his, his heart and give it away to bodies that fit the intimacy level that you desire. But he truly, He’s walked this situation out with me for years now and you know, to the point where I didn’t even want anybody to touch me. To the point where I didn’t want to look at myself in the mirror to the point that I didn’t want to, I surely like whenever anything like in a sexual manner happens that even like with my kids around like I am so cognitively aware on such a deep level of anything like that and to the point that it’s probably going to be to my kids’ detriment.

I hope I’m not one of those parents like, “you cannot have sex”. But I hope that I come up with a storyline, of explaining the heart of God behind that passion. And I don’t even think this was the intent of where this conversation was expected to go, but absolutely. I know at the beginning we talked about where we’ve been, how we got to where we were.

We walked through the middle season of our life. And so I would love for you to share with people that weren’t even a part fully apart of the blossoming that you’ve done. And I love for you to kind of unpack that a little bit more on where you are now. And like this whole concept of a success coach, like that’s a success in and of itself to be celibate for six years as a middle-aged 30 or a middle 30-year-old woman who is his walk. And it’s the testimony to your son to your 15-year-old.

Jamie Dockiewicz: I’ve had conversations with John, he, I’m going to (inaudible 51:30), but he knows what’s happening and I’ve passed and he knows the walk that they don’t walk in and, and he, you know, he understands for a 15-year-old, as much as he could understand.

Tamra: Yeah. I love that. And I get that there’s a lot of fine lines in there and, but I just, I think it’s incredible and I just commend you, for being as strong as you have been. So thank you for being an example to my daughter and to many women out there that it is possible. And I want to give hope to the people who have been in a marriage or who are out of sight of relationships that it can start today.

It’s the decision that you make right now about how much you are worth because you are worth so much. That was so much that a life was given for you so much that love is given to you, import over you and prayed for you and planned out for you from before you were ever even conceived. So know your worth, whoever’s listening know you are worth it in so many different ways.So strange transition. Please share.

Jamie Dockiewicz: It’s ok So yeah there was a lot, there was a lot in the before the military. And then when I went into the military, it kind of went with me. And got military kind of got dumped on top of that. Like weird, weird visualization. Sometimes I get these weird, these visuals. Never had like this, but it’s like I was thinking about ice cream cone and it’s usually sweeter when you have more, more scoops on top of the cone. But what happens when you put too many scoops on top of the cone?

Tamra: Its gonna fall off. That’s good. That’s a good visual. I love it.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Exactly. So it was literally like the entire cone fell apart of my life. And you know, I’m just hot mess trying to push my way through and I got very, very good at learning how to just keep pushing through. Just keep trucking along because you know what, that’s what I was told all my life. Just keep pushing to me. It’s just got over it. Just keep going. Just keep going. So I learn how to do it. And I kept going and I kept going and I kept going and I literally ran my train off the tracks and still kept trying to drive that train. And it was just, it was beyond nuts.

There was at least more than one occasion where I contemplated admitting myself to a mental hospital. There was one occasion before joining the military that I took 14 ibuprofen hoping to end my life. Thankfully, ibuprofen doesn’t do that much. It could make you sick, like make you throw up or whatever. But fortunately, now take please anyone who’s thinking anything, don’t think that it’s okay to take 14 ibuprofen it’s not okay.

But I’m grateful that it didn’t do anything. But that’s pretty much, that’s what I dealtwithin my mind. I remember there were many years where I would be in such emotional turmoil that I would cry hysterically every day. I would scream, I would be angry. I would pull my hair so tight. I was almost pulling it out and I would bang my head on walls because there was so much going on in my head and I didn’t understand what to do with it and nobody else understood. And so the only thing I could do was just try to get it out. Essentially.

I would try to bang it out, try to pull it out and like it didn’t work. Finally, through working through meeting Christ and working through that relationship and other people that I came into contact with through the church, I started to get some healing. And that’s kind of what’s helped me on the road to celibacy and many other areas of healing. And within that and within my time in the military.

I decided my son’s father when we were together had encouraged me to go back to school and I never thought that I could even go to school because one, I couldn’t afford it. And I was a CD student before I dropped out and I hated school. So why would I go back? Why would I go to college when I hated school, I wasn’t good at it, but he encouraged me to at least try.

He said you have these benefits that are free to you. Why are you not using them? So I started with associates trying to grow for associates. Ended up before that was done switching to a bachelor’s and got my bachelor’s degree. Before I was finished my bachelor’s degree. I was like, I want to go further, I want to go get my master’s degree. What in the world was I thinking? So here we go, more school. So I go when I get my master’s degree and when I was finishing that, my dad said, and a couple of other people said, you should go for your doctorate. And I was like, no, I’m done. I’m done. I’m done. Like that’s it.

Tamra: Well, I love it.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Three years later I’m sitting at work after like a couple of days had gone by and like multiple people talked about school, going back to school for this and that and whatever. And all of a sudden I just got this, it wasn’t like a, like a voice that I heard and it was just this general calming piece that just said, it’s time to go back. It’s time to go back. And so I found a school and I enrolled and by the end of the year prayerfully if all continues to go well, I will have my doctorate.

Tamra: So amazing! And that’s degree is in what?

Jamie Dockiewicz: Degrees in business administration with a concentration or leadership. Just in March, I finished all of my classes with a 4.0 and some of that, I think the teachers just kind of said, here we want you to finish the class. So just here [inaudible 57:43].

But it was a lot of work with a lot of writing, a lot of research, a lot of days where I was crying.

Tamra: Well from a dropout to a doctorate.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Right, exactly.

Tamra: And that is like “boom”, it is like a story.

Jamie Dockiewicz: And it was developed in all of that can think of all the stuff that I went through. And I mean, I know people that went through far worse than me and I commend them for being here today. But thinking about all the stuff that I had been through and each level that I’ve gone up and how much, you know, I’ve progressed educationally. Especially through the help of God and my friends and family that have supported me.

What’s resonated in my heart so much is that no matter how far down you’ve gone, no matter how much you’ve messed up, you cannot only rise above, but you can go further than you ever dreamed.

Tamra: Yeah. So true.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Go further than you can ever dream. And basically, that’s kind of what has birthed this success coach concept. I desire to help people to figure out where are they stuck, develop a plan to move forward and coach them through that process.

Tamra: So good. That’s so good. And I love, you know, a big component of that just from where you’ve started on that is your journey. And that’s honestly a whole nother podcast that we might not have time for that today, but I loved that, you know, you’re starting from that financial piece, which I think is such a vulnerable conversation for so many people already because that’s a place that you often hide again, you’re only as sick as your secrets and the facade. Again, the mask of what we put out in front for people to see.

Because what you drive matters, what your house looks like matters, but what debt are you carrying? What spending habits are you, are you utilizing as comfort whether it’s food, whether it’s shopping, what, you know, so many different things. So I love that you’re starting in a place that seems businesslike, but it’s going to give you an opportunity to just let people be transparent. And, and that right there is going to give you the true end for that transformation piece because if we can get our finances aligned and we can be honest about something as secretive as that, then you can help from, okay, ‘the finances are causing me anxiety.

This is stemming from this situation from, I didn’t have money when I was younger, which is stemming from the fact that I lived out of a van with a mattress. And so you get to, it’s not just the success of what society deems success, but what Jesus deems as success and that I’m so excited to see for people.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Exactly. And that’s the thing. And we don’t realize that we look at society and society says you should do this and you should do that. But between you and God, as long as it’s in the will of God, you set the bar. You set the bar. And when you get close to that bar, if you want to raise it then you keep raising.

Tamra: Yea I love that. It’s funny cause raise the bar is like a……(inaudible 1:01:23).

Jamie Dockiewicz: Oh my God…the burn thing.

Tamra: And she just recently became my burn sister too, which is amazing. And we talk, you know my stick is all the mind, body and soul and I feel like you’ve gotten so mentally strong. You are so spiritually strong and here you are working out alongside me to get that physical component that I just think is going to make you unstoppable. And I’m, I love seeing that component of you just thrive because your testimony is just going to grow from that.

So more power to you like for constantly raising the bar, not for other people but for yourself first and walking that out first. Cause I think so often we have this desire and you might have this internal call or purpose over your life that you knew a long time ago. Like I want this for other people. You have a soft heart, you have a kind heart. You have gone through all of these trials. I don’t want other people to do this, but until you are personally capable of standing on your own two feet, there’s no way you can help somebody else stand up. It’s just not possible. You’re not sturdy enough for them to hold onto.

Jamie Dockiewicz: And once you do, once you get to that point where you’re able to stand up, you better reach back and help someone else out do not leave them there. Because you used to be there and you most likely had somebody help you through it?

Tamra: Yes, so true. There is a Bernay Brown book that I’m reading right now ‘daring to lead’ or ‘dare to lead’. It is amazing. She talks a lot about vulnerability and transparency, but all of it is about leadership. It’d be amazing for your doctorate component. But she’s talking about creating this square squad and I’m talking about it tonight at Core, which we’re going to do afterward. But it’s talking, it’s kind of like the inner circle concept of what we’re often taught. Like you are the five people that you surround yourself with and in church, pastor Ravi is always talking about that inner circle being so cutting it, and it doesn’t need to be 400 people or 40 people or like it needs to be four people.

So she changes it, Renae changes it to the square squad. So it’s a square and it too is, you know, in front of you who is beside you, who’s behind you and she doesn’t talk about it from that perspective. She just calls the square squad cause there are four people. And so the way I unpacked it and visualized it was that there’s the person in front of you, they’re your mentor, the person you’re falling behind.

I want to go where you’re going. The person who’s probably been where you are and they’re the one reaching up behind it to say, come on with me. Just like you said, and then you have your people who are beside you, which would be like you and me for each other. The person who’s like your sister who’s just like, come on, you’ve got this, let’s go, I’ll go with you, I’ll experience this with you.

But then you have to have that person who’s behind you that will catch you when you fall.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Taking it back to the beginning of the conversation at the time, military concept into that. So in the military, if you’re not driving, if you’re walking usually, well even in the convent you got people, cars, vehicles in front of you, the vehicles behind you. The vehicle in the front and the vehicle in the back usually have someone with weapons and you know they’re looking in all directions to cover all whole 360. And if you’re walking around, it’s the same concept. You at least have two people, but a lot of times you try to make sure you have a full 360 coverage.

And have you ever heard the concept of actress six? So usually on the clock, well it’s 12 and a six. So the concept is, and a lot of times its two people, but you can also have four. You can have more people. So you know you have that. Everybody’s covering somebody. And the people here can scan this way and you got the whole thing. That’s exactly what I see when I see a draw.

Tamra: So cool. I love it. It’s such, it’s a different dynamic but seriously makes up the same thing. Circle versus a square.

Jamie Dockiewicz: It’s full coverage.

Tamra: Yeah. And I’m pumped to be alongside it with you. I’m excited to see as you, I don’t know, was that your elbow. Okay, we need to get to the gym and make sure it doesn’t break. But imagining you being almost all of these for somebody and not this, not for one person, but you’re going to be that mentor for someone who’s like, come on, you are a sister already to me and so many other walking life out alongside us. But then also that person who’s like, I got your six and I love that about you because you’re on guard all the time.

Jamie Dockiewicz:

Probably too much sometimes.

Tamra: Maybe So. Maybe to a fault, we all have our, our pros can be our cons. So I mean it’s an interesting concept. Even like I was just going through a conversation of addiction and how your addictive personality can be your biggest strength if your addiction is for good. And yet at the same time, it can be your largest weakness when your addiction is turned to the bad. So I don’t even know how to close today out because it was just so dynamic in so many different ways. But do you have anything else that you want to share or say? I know we talked about other things.

Jamie Dockiewicz: Well, I think we have touched everything. I mean, other than going deep into the financial stuff, I mean there’s, I made some really poor choices financially and then learned a lot of things. By the way, I love Dave Ramsey if you haven’t heard of them look them up. So I’ve learned a lot of things from that and that’s helped to shape certain things as well. And you know, maybe another time we can have another podcast.

Tamra: We will.

Jamie Dockiewicz: But when I was on my way here and I think you had asked me like to, you know, kinda think about some things I had just a couple of words that popped in my head and those words were to get back up. And so I just want to encourage anyone else who’s listening to this, no matter where you are in your life, even if you’ve achieved a bunch of stuff but you feel like you’re stuck or you feel like there’s not another level, I encourage you there is.

Or if you have messed up in a certain area of your life and you feel like there’s no way to go back to that and start again or even try something new and maybe it’s not to start again with that, maybe its start again with something new, you know, whatever, whatever it is, get back up. Try again.

Tamra: I love it. I was just literally teaching my five years old how to ride a two-wheeler, which he knows how to do, but he just has this fear factor that he’s got to fall, which why not. And yesterday I, he kept getting so frustrated, he gets so mad when he can’t win or when he doesn’t achieve and it’s literally pushed on himself because I’m an achiever. So I try hard not to press that upon him that he has to be the best. Just do your best, you don’t have to be the best.

But he kept falling and I just kept saying, if at first, you don’t succeed, try, try, try again. And he would stomp his feet. The tears would flow immediately. And he got so mad and he’s like, “Oh, I just have to make it home.” And he would get back on the bike and keep going.

And I just was so proud of him in the end, because it is hard, it’s not easy to get back up. There’s going to be people who are in your way saying that you can’t do it and likely they’re going to be the people who are closest to you. You keep going, just like you said, you raise the bar for yourself, not for anybody else’s pleasure, not for anybody else’s expectations but for yourself because you are the one with yourself at the end of the day, you are the one who looks in your reflection when you’re brushing your teeth in the morning.

That is the time that you get to be real and most alive with yourself. If you are not getting back up, you are just falling. Your falling. And there is such opportunity to just get right with yourself and that vertical alignment before you ever concern yourself with the horizontal alignment of other people and when you are ready, that horizontal alignment becomes beautiful because you’re open and able to walk out like linked arm and arm and I’ve walked out many, many years without having that open assessability for other people.

My arms were tight to my side and I was marching forward, but I was not allowing anybody else to come along for the ride, even my husband. So I’m thankful that I’ve learned that the ability to just like be open for other people and knowing the value of getting back up and helping others up along the way. And you definitely have been an inspiration to me and help me up many times with your words and just your presence. So I’m grateful to have you here. I hope that others, and I know other people have already experienced you from the Michelle Murray success coach space that you now are jumping into alongside your doctorate. It’s insane. It’s amazing. I’m so proud of you.

Jamie Dockiewicz: I still don’t like, I’m still not comprehending.

Tamra: It’s so amazing! Ph.D.…. that’s so wild. And so just if you guys want to look her up, she’s incredible. I’ll link her on the podcast and all of the lives that you guys are a part of now. It’s been real. It’s been amazing and I’m thankful for you.

Jamie Dockiewicz: I love you.

Tamra: I love you too. I love your smile. All right. The dogs have been with us the whole time and you haven’t barked one time. Do you want to say anything? No, nothing so sweet. All right, lots of love guys. Thanks so much for tuning in.

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