• Tamra Andress

Offering Second Chances is Good Business Sense with Joseph Bucci

From failure to forgiveness from forgiveness to freedom, from freedom to fulfillment. While this doesn't necessarily sound like a business concept, we could offer second chances and that's actually good business sense.

Dr. Joseph Bucci's newest book is called Redemption, Inc. and he is on here today as a pastor, as an educator, an author and all of these things, but ultimately he's on here as a mentor to you and to me.

We're supposed to build our business on the rock. And yet so many Christians fall short. We're not perfect. We get it. But this is a new lens. This is a new opportunity. And we're in a new era where we need to give grace and we need to be the walking example of love.

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About Joseph:

Joseph J. Bucci’s career has spanned many seasons and many different roles, including Pastor, Author, HR Director, Director of Training, Professor and Consultant. Joseph has over 20 years of experience in various Human Resources and Training roles, including five years as Director of the Learning Department of for a large corporation in Philadelphia, PA. But his favorite roles, and those he enjoys most, are those of being a loving husband of 40 years to his wife Debi, and a loving father of five amazing adult children. Joseph’s first book, “Redemptive Leadership: Offering Second Chances as a Value-Added Management Practice” was published by Palgrave MacMillan in 2016. Joe’s newest book, “Redemption Inc.: Why Offering Second Chances Makes Good Business Sense” is currently available as an eBook, with the paperback version available July 26th.

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Show Notes: Offering Secon Chances is Good Business Sense

From failure to forgiveness from forgiveness to freedom, from freedom to fulfillment. This doesn't necessarily sound like a business concept, but what if it was, what if we could offer second chances and that that's actually. Good business sense. Y'all I just stole almost every single word from Dr.

Joseph Gucci's newest book called redemption, Inc. And he is on here today as a pastor, as an educator and a professor and an author and all of these things, but ultimately he's on here as a mentor. Uh, to you and a mentor to me, and he has such a well of information and a breadth of knowledge when it comes to what could we do in a leadership realm and a managerial perspective, and then a, a realm of developing business and allowing redemptive love to be the premise.

We're supposed to build our business on the rock. And yet so many Christians fall short and yeah, me too. We're not perfect. We get it. But this is a new lens. This is a new opportunity. And we're in a new era where we need to give grace and we need to be the walking example of love. And there is no better way than to get your hands on this book and to be able to apply that into your workforce, even if you aren't the entrepreneur, even if you.

The leader, you are a leader, whether you think you are in management or not. God, has you managing the kingdom right here right now, even as you listen to the fit and faith podcast. Dr. Joseph bohi. I love you. Thank you so much for being here and you guys gotta get your hands again. It's called redemption ink.

This book is for you. This podcast. For you tune in, stay into it and be sure to review, follow and give us a light, give him a share. It would be an honor to me as a friend. And I asked you at the end, if you could leave a book review, uh, either for him, for myself, for both of us, we would love it. We appreciate you.

And I'm excited to be in person with you soon at the grower business for God's sake conference. Make sure you get your tickets today. You don't wanna miss an opportunity. The seats for VIP, especially. Fast and our new anthology, which I talk about in this series. And this show today is dropping soon and you're gonna want to be at the launch party.

It's gonna be nuts and by nuts, I mean, awesome. And by awesome. I mean, it's beautiful and by beautiful, I mean, fulfilling, and that is nuts. All y'all love you. I really hope you know this by now, since we've been doing this thing, this podcast for several years and hundreds of episodes have been done, but we go live.

We literally make this an experience, a video immersive opportunity to not only hang with me, your girl, your coach, your friend, your sister, but also hang with the incredible guests that we have that come on. I utilize stream yard in order to do this, it is the simplest platform. Since I've done video. And stay one with this podcast, I've utilized a lot.

E cam restrain, you, you name it and it's not nearly as productive, as simple and as user friendly and beautiful. So of course I'm going for what looks good, right? What looks good? What feels good? It's Dreamyard. Use the show notes, click the link there. Get your own version and pay for the upgrade. I promise it's worth it.

You don't wanna be branded by them. You wanna be your own brand. That's. Tip take it or leave it, but I ensure you, your podcast will be better for it.

Welcome to the fit and faith podcast fit is an acronym representing founders, innovators, and trailblazers who are looking to live a life holy, fully, authentically, and truly fit a space for us to connect on the raw real stories of mind, body, and soul alignment of entrepreneurs and kingdom leaders. I'm your host, Tamara, Andre, and this podcast, isn't like the cookie cutter interview experience.

I've been coined the entrepreneurial rabbi. And so we do go there unscripted, no matter how far wide, deep or high the, there is. My desire is to see people rise from the inside, out, into their greatest calling, by sharing their truest stories. And tips as a purpose activator and brand builder. I believe our successes and failures are derived from who and whose we are not what we do, but strategy and vision are equally as important to the mission.

So let's cut to the chase together and get fit in faith.

Well, hello, hello, and welcome to the pit and faith podcast. So excited to have you here. You guys, you are with, I wanna call you doctor aren't you a doctor by now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. He said, yeah, I feel like you, you can't see, you can't see the wall, uh, that I'm looking at here, but I have, uh, I have like five degrees, you know, when you're trying to figure out what to do with your life, you know, and just keep, keep going back.

Just keep lower. Well, our students are like that a little bit too, you know, they. Taken, uh, hold of it or not really clear on that. So the easiest thing to do is just stay in school. For me, it was more like, uh, you know, I was on drugs the first time I was in school. So then I dropped out, clearly heard the spirit of God's, uh, saying to me, you you're going nowhere with your life.

You know, I'm getting high every day. I'm working at Sears catalog, you know, Breaking things, just kind of crazy stuff. So I got back into school, went to a Bible study, made a profession of faith in Christ. And, um, so, you know, finished that degree, but really felt like there was something else that was going on applied for an assistantship at the end of that, got into education.

Uh, and then, uh, was kind of floating around doing different things. Um, became director of training at a company. I got grace and, uh, we brought an MBA on site. So then I got another degree, got a ministerial degree. Uh, and then in order to do this work needed to get a doctorate. So yeah, there's a lot. My wife and I both had five degrees.

It's just, that's incredible. It's um, you know, you're processing, you're trying to God, if this is direction, you would have us to go then how do I. Uh, achieve this, you know, what do they say about entrepreneurs? Right? Entrepreneurs are, are C students who are hiring a and B students, right? and some of them are just, some of them are just starting business, no business plan or whatever.

And they've got all these college educated, uh, students, but for some of us it's, uh, in order to get to the next step, you find yourself just continuing school. . Yeah, hopefully I'm not at the level of my incompetence, uh, right now. No, no. Well, I mean already, if, if people were able to, to watch the trailer, um, and if you're not, and you're here, just joining us audibly on the podcast.

Thanks for being here. Thanks for tuning into the show and the understanding that. There is someone on the other end of the mic that is not only a professor in his, all the right of actually showing up to university professor. Um, but just the wisdom and intelligence and the mentorship that you've brought to my life, just in a short period of time and to the incredible people that you've steward as a pastor.

And now as an author, well, it's not that this, this isn't your first published piece. No, my first, uh, My first one, as I press things here got my first one was this one really? Oh, leadership. That was really, uh, it, it all started. It all started when I was born actually. But, uh, in this case, obviously, uh, this journey started as I said, so I'm, you know, if you're gonna be in this, in this field, uh, even for a C.

Colleges or universities, you have to have a doctorate. So I went back to school 50 years old, not really sure what to do, but looking for a question. And the Lord had laid on my heart for years. This idea of redemption. What does it look like now? I'm studying management. So what does redemption look like?

In the management literature. And, um, this Genesis of this really was me, uh, doing a survey of 46, uh, Christian, uh, leaders, entrepreneurs, uh, leaders of nonprofits, 46 people who self-identified as people of faith. So there's a series of questions. Does faith influence your decision making? Yes. Is faith, you know, important on the job?

Yes. Yes. Very high. Very high. Okay. So then the question. Would you rehire somebody that you terminated? No. Okay. Would you hire a former drug addict? No. Would you hire a former prisoner? No. So, you know, in my early survey work early doctoral program, you know, that doesn't make sense. How come they're not representing this?

If there are people of faith. Well, right. You know, you come to kind of step back and look at the data for what it. maybe they see representation of faith in a different way. They're giving their time, they're giving money. They're uh, whatever it might be. They're not necessarily redeeming people. That's not their work.

They hire people. Yes. But, uh, they don't really have time for that kind of stuff. And, and what does it really look like on the job? So then the question is what does redemption look like in the management literature? So I'm an HR guy. Is it okay for me to talk about this? Oh, it's amazing. I'm loving it. I went to school for business management, so I think it's incredible not to mention.

I've already taken some peaks into your book and it's gonna, you guys gotta stay for the juicy stuff. Let's hear. So I I'm an HR guy, so I'm thinking that, um, you know, uh, redemption is when you discipline somebody and they change your behavior, but just imagine this, okay. You got 10 people who report to you.

One of 'em is acting. And, uh, uh, you know, the literature says that really 75% of employees, uh, demonstrate some level of Arant behavior. Okay. From lateness, oh, 75 days off all the way up to violence. We think of, you know, ARRT behavior. We think of violence, but no, it really is a range. So it's, it's a, it's a misconception to think that you're.

is from a normal distribution curve. Right. Uh, but anyway, so you, uh, your discipline and this guy, maybe you turned his life around, but if you think about redemption, what Jesus has done for us, we couldn't do this ourselves. It was something that he had to do. So then the scenario is, well, what happens if somebody is terminated?

right. And they can't bring themselves back. And then they're brought back and under what circumstances, a last chance agreement, maybe they're in an EAP drug program, um, a union grievance or some other kind of lawsuit, a number of different ways. So, well, how does that work? 18 studies. I reviewed 18. And all of 'em said it never works.

Uh, people never achieved the same level of performance, uh, nor do they stick around. So then the hypothesis and that's my dissertation and really what became the first book is, well, can it be successful? And what are the behaviors of managers who do it successfully? So I did a bunch of interviews and.

Collected that information and I'm, you know, that's my dissertation got my degree. Thank you. Um, and so now I'm in the academy and now you have to publish. like what? I'm like, I just wrote this big, uh, book here, so maybe I can make that worthwhile. So I'm trying to figure out how to get it published. And we have academic publishers here, but I did talk to a C.

A publishing house that didn't have any business books in their, in their life. Very big Christian publishing. I won't mention their initials, but we could figure. So, um, I don't have to. So I meet with a lady and I show her this information and she says, well, that's really great, but we don't have business books.

Our people are not interested. there are Christians who that's what you do for work. Right, right, right. Totally. So, uh, so she says, well, our people would only be interested in redemption in other fields. Okay. Hmm. All right. So I'm a little frustrated. Went to the academic publisher, got this publish. This book itself is 130 bucks.

Uh, I can't even get a. I have to pay 30 bucks cause it's an academic book. so I, um, so I, you know, I check the box, get tenure. Everything's great. But I still got this thing back of my mind. What does redemption look like in other places? And, and, you know, can businesses really see the value in. Hiring these people who is doing it, what, what is the success rate?

And I read several articles and one from a nonprofit. And I, I can't remember what it was. Um, but they were crying out saying, you know, we're changing people's lives. We need, uh, businesses to hire art people. and that boom, that was it. So this new book, redemption ink is really as much as my guys in the Bible study, you know, we brainstormed about it and there you go.

There it is. If you're, if you're not watching, if you're listening, it's redemption. Why offering second chances makes good business sense. It's really seeing business as a key part of completing the cycle. Okay. And, and you are a magnificent example of that. Okay. A person who's sorting through things, working with coaches, counseling, you know, if people know your story, what a beautiful story it is, and you need to work.

So, uh, there are groups there. Actually our groups to five ventures is one, uh, where they go into prisons and they say, well, you're, nobody's gonna hire you. Right. 75% of. Of Excon, you know, get out and after a year they can't find work 75%. Yeah. 60% go back to their original employer because they can't find work.

So if you can't find work, what do you do? Right. Um, so Def five ventures goes into prisons and says, you need to be an entrepreneur. You need to sell your story. You need to sell your. You have skills that are transferable, you may have used them for evil, right? Joseph, what God meant for what you meant for evil.

God meant for God. Yep. So I started stumbling over by the grace of God, people who had been through, uh, a redemptive intervention, uh, and, and their stories were remarkable and it gave me a chance to not only. tell their story. Hopefully I did a good job with that, but also look at that, that segment, you know?

Yeah. We talked about prisoners. I talked about on my first book, talked about it in the second book. Uh, there was a woman who presented at our, an MBA, uh, class. Right? You have a business degree. Uh, she was doing her, uh, capstone, uh, business. And she tells a story. Uh, and this woman I worked with every day, uh, she was here on campus, elegant, wonderful professional woman telling a story, you know, I wanna start.

Program. I wanna start this ministry for women who are being abused. You know, here's an example of a woman. She tells this tragic story about this woman husband's being watched by the police. Uh, he's dealing all kinds of, uh, illegal stuff and she feels trapped. He's cheating. She doesn't know how to escape.

And, uh, I wanted to reach people like that woman. And then she says, and I am that woman. and I started crying my eyes and I can't believe it. How come? I didn't know this because someone put her back together. Mm-hmm, someone stitched her back together. Just like people don't know your story, Deborah, and, and you are an amazing person that God has stitched together.

And I love that about you. I love that faith on every page of your book, uh, faith just comes out because we can. We can't do it. That's my life, right? Yeah. I'm the woman at the, well, yeah, I'm the one saying, come, let me, let me tell you about a man. Uh, yeah, come here. A man told me everything I'd ever done.

So, uh, you know, six years of, um, collecting stories and, you know, I thought I'm never gonna write another book here, but, uh, finally in the spring, uh, Just praying God, I, these, these stories are incredible. I just gotta get these stories. And, uh, we were able to put it together. So, and it's y'all, you have to get it first off.

I'm only into the intro and I had an opportunity to skim through it before it was even in this phase. And I know that the stories that come out are people that, you know, and maybe didn't know their backstory, which makes it that much more juicy. Cause you're like, what? I didn't know that about Tim Allen.

I'm sad. I had a guy say that to me this week. Yeah. So I never knew that about Tim Allen. No clue. It's I think because of the way that he exists in, in his work, it's very different than Steve Harvey, right? Where Steve Harvey talks about his backstory and how he was living out story. I mean just wild stuff.

And I have a lot of people who I am close to who are in the public eye and people would never know their story. If they didn't allow the grace of God to be the glory in their story. And that be how they share cuz otherwise, and. One of my life's missions is otherwise people sit those things in like that Pandora's closet in the dark, and that becomes a massive element of shame and they never talk about it.

Right. Right. And so I, I love having the conversation and putting that in the forefront because then it's like, Hey, what you see looking in is not what. And it's not also, what is, let me show you about the deep work and that stitching. I love that that visual for me is so beautiful. It reminds me of the, um, the rag dolls that have been stitched back together and they are still love and lovable simultaneous to that.

Yeah. One of our cover ideas was a, uh, was like a glass doll with a shattered face. Uh, cool. And, uh, I showed that to my kids. That's creepy I like it. Well, and the thing for me is, and this is something I'm so passionate about. It's the whole reason that I have the grow your business for God's sake conference as an initiative for all of the people that I'm so connected to that get this side of it, because similar to how that Christian publishing house is like, oh, they don't, they're not interested.

Well, yeah, they are. What do they do with a third of their life? They go to work, right? And this is so critical for us to recognize whether you're the employer or the employee. You have relationships with humans and they likely have some sort of redemptive story or some awareness factor that hasn't no light has been flipped on in their own personal life.

And they're walking out addiction currently and people don't know that part of them. And so. I think it's such an empowering tool for us to recognize how do businesses reintegrate and really show off the redemptive love of the Lord instead of having this, you know, perception of love and actually not walking it out.

Which it sounds like that's what that original, you know, uh, checklist was that people were going down and they're like, yeah, I I'll give anybody. I love everybody. That's what God tells me to do, but that person can't come. Yeah, we certainly do that. So it goes back. You and I talked about this, uh, uh, the survey that was done in, uh, state of Texas over 20 years, two and a half million businesses, uh, 71% of the people who tried to start a business and failed, never tried.

Yep. So you live with that failure and there's shame. Right. And, and, you know, we don't wanna acknowledge it. We're we're shamed. Uh, um, and so helping people when they try it again, very successful when they tried a third time, very successful, but it's just getting over that hump. And maybe that was not the role that God would have him be.

Uh, where are we in supporting those people? Where's the church in supporting those people. I, you know, church, this weekend, people are coming, asking for money. If you wanna be the church he preaches from Matthew 16, if you want to be the real church, right. Then, you know, I will build my church, give money to this.

Cause what about taking the guy to breakfast or lunch? The one who failed in his business saying, Hey, let me, let me encourage you. Let me help you. Uh, what are the next steps? Where can we go? How can I support you? How can I partner with you as you go through this time of failure and see, you're not a failure.

You know, I, uh, you know, you, my story, we did a church plant. I wanted to do this. I left a good job company. Car walked away from all that honey. We're on the front lines. People need Jesus than they need to hear our message, but I idolized it. The role was more important to me, uh, than, uh, exactly what we were doing.

And so one day she came to me after several years and said, I don't know about you, but I hate this. And I'm leav. Yeah, wait a minute. Where's that in the script? the truth. So I, you know, we were able to agree on something and it caused the next, uh, series of moves. And I felt ashamed all my old friends, all the people, you know, buddy, buddy are out there planting a church who the heck are you?

They forget about you. One person called and said, Hey, how you doing? Let's get together. Uh, I didn't forget about. I knew who you were and I encouraged us and we were close enough that we're able to, uh, connect and, uh, just some encouragement. We weren't abandoned. Uh, I was fortunate. I was able to go back, uh, the church actually there, that church still exists.

That's amazing to go back to on their 25th anniversary. And, uh, they read things that I had written as a very naive young man trying to. Have this vision for a multicultural church and it is, it's just amazing, but you know, it's just what God, it's, you know, only God can do this. And I'm grateful that he did that.

Not for me, for the people who's lives have been changed because we, we failed and we acknowledged our failure and yet God used it. You know, he redeemed the years, the locus. Right had stolen. Yeah. I mean, it's, there's so much of us to recognize it, like as a mirror. And I think when we hear people's stories or we're reading them, like you exampled in, in your own book is there's all of these stories around us every single day.

And often we shun away like, oh, that's not me. Oh, I can't believe that happened to her. Oh, I can't believe he did that. I didn't know that that was his backstory. And really what if we looked at it from a, a frame of a mirror. And because everyone looks to sin as different levels or different step parts of the step ladder, like, oh, I'm higher than that person.

Cause I didn't do that thing. It's this recognition that like, we know Republican. Right, right, right. Exactly know what's right. We know how we're supposed to do it. And if we don't, the word tells us and that's where we should be leaning into. But. Action versus words. Right? And so this is where it's there was this, uh, a really fun movie called the senior intern.

Um, famous. I can't even think of the guy's name, but Ann Hathaway was the main character. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. What I'm talking about and like, When I saw that movie, I'm like what a brilliant idea, or just a yes, yes. What a brilliant idea. Why would we not utilize the wisdom and the energy and the life and the, just the mentorship of bringing in senior interns.

And this is no different. It's like, who has been the ostracized? The least of these are the ones I call and I think there's. If we open with an empathetic lens and that opportunity, obviously there's safe. Harbors, obviously there's boundaries, obviously. Sure. There's, you know, mechanisms that as a business entity, we can instill, uh, as a closer mentorship perhaps to their management team.

But I think it's so critical for us to recognize that there's more to their story and their service than just the one element of shame that they're holding onto, or that we are literally gaslighting them. There's a, there needs to be a wider lens when it comes to considering, uh, people we mentioned. Uh, 75% of people demonstrated Aran behavior.

So you're never gonna hire a perfect person. What is your role as a manager? What is your, what is your mission? It, it goes back your business student. So I could take you back to 1960, the sixties. Then some of us lived in the sixties. Some of us just dream about living in the sixties. Yeah, exactly. Uh, but in 1960 Blake and Moton their, um, their leadership grid, you know, you've.

Um, uh, production versus people, right? Uh, concern for production versus concern for people that spawned a lot of the contingency theories and situational theories. And we go back to that all the time. Should I be concerned about. The people I work for, but I've also gotta deliver this product, this service, I gotta get it out the door.

And, uh, that affects our management style. Can we not do both? Can we not, you know, knit the goals of, and objectives of the individuals who work with us with the incentive of achieving this objective to meet a customer need. And that's, that's. The challenge, right? Yeah. So part of the book talks about that.

Part of it is also, hopefully people will read it and, um, maybe they'll see in their own lives. Hey, this is something I really need to admit. Right? The Tim Allen story is a perfect example. He, uh, dealt with his issues, you know, prison and then some alcohol issues and he's cooking along. He's, Timal, he's very important and popular, but it cropped up again.

You have to yeah. Appreciate that again. I go back to your. Book and your own story. Hey, I need a, I need a retooling here. I don't remember exactly how you said it. Yeah. In the book, but, um, you know, I need a, I need a, a. Here. I need a, just a need to make sure I'm on track. I, I actually have a coach I'm 66 years old.

I'm working with a coach now. Awesome. You know, how can I be better? How can I do better? How can I reflect on those things that are hindering my ability to hear and to see and to perform? That's what the word of God is supposed to do. It's supposed to. And wash over us and expose some of those areas.

Right. We, we need that. We don't need, you know, story time or we don't need, uh, you know, the entertainment. No, gosh, no. And, and COVID kind of flushed that out. I think of some. Churches, but, um, well, it's interesting because I mean, there are so many directions and elements to this conversation and I hope people listening are hearing not only his heart, but also the, um, breath of experience.

Right. There's been the, I've been on this side of the microphone. I've been on that side of the microphone. And all the places in between and people have to recognize that no matter how far someone has come or how far there is an appearance of them becoming even still, like we have to have those checkpoints, we have to have, even within the leadership realm, checkpoint.

Right there. There's no different than the operations view that you would have over your company. Org chart is like, who's talking to who and who's checking out who, and for me personally, I have been given access from other leaders into their unique stories. And I, with that access am able to kind of poke the bear, you know, and, and keep them in tune and say, Hey, I can see you're a little bit out of alignment here lately with your message.

That's great. Or with the way that you're showing up on social media or lack thereof, where have you been what's going on? And we need people like that. But in order for that to be truly authentic, which is such a buzzword, everyone's like let's be authentic and simultaneous, they haven't actually allowed other people into those areas to save Harbor them.

No, it's I say to my students all the time, you have to honestly come to me. If I say one. And I do something else. Don't be afraid of me. Don't think I'm, you know, the professor or doctor or whatever. Um, I challenge people all the time. You know, when was the last time someone came to me and said, you know, I just, I hear this in your heart.

It doesn't sound right. Uh, it's the people closest to us, you know, we're fortunate with spouses that we have, who can be honest with us, but then can't be defensive about it, which. I don't know about you, but I know that I get defensive. It's so hard. We were talking before we jumped online here. Y'all, you've gotta know this and celebrate alongside me.

Him and his wife are celebrating 40 years this year. And I'm like so proud of my 10 years. That's about to take place, but simultaneous I'm. 40 years. And I think through the habits that every single day and the defense mechanisms, every single day, I have to like always be bringing my walls down because societally we're taught literally as women taught to build up those walls, like I am strong.

I am fierce. I am a boss, babe. I can do all the things simultaneous to that. I just. His comfort. I need his wisdom. I need his direction. I need his covering. And at the end of the day, and there's areas of those falling short, I can't rely on him for everything. And so that's where, you know, God is in the midst and intertwined and all around, and I didn't always have that lens.

Which when you read my book, you can see that. But I, I was very in that self-driven realm, which I think about all of these people. When we think about addiction, we think about imprisonment, um, based on other reasons, I think about the fact that no different than myself, they just chose a different vice.

Right. I was lucky. I just didn't have prison sentence connected to my sin. Right, right. Yeah. I agree with that. I don't think that everyone's meant to have to be an entrepreneur because they have a really good story or they had to go to prison. I think that there should be an open door policy and conversation that transpires on the, the lead team on the management team, on the HR realm.

Quick commercial break. I know I hate these things too, but it's so critical that you grow your business for God's sake. And I mean, that pun intended with all the love in my heart to get you from a place of ideation to. Should stop dreaming, start doing stand up, start saying yes to the call that God has on your life.

We are going to be joining in lexing Kentucky with none other than the beautiful rise and grind community with Glen Lundy, who will be co-hosting this incredible conference. This is the second annual, and he has taken me under his wing to be able to share the stage to motivate and inspire. And I cannot wait to see you there November 5th through the seventh.

If you wanna come in for the V I P. Which you doesn't want to come along for VIP, that's all access passes to the speakers and the artists, and you'll be able to dine with us in the private rooms with your own special bathrooms. So of course, come one day, two day, three day passes available as well. And we cannot wait as Glen.

Nice. A to hug your neck. See you there. And so I'm curious, even for your students, uh, at, at Regent and he, he's a professor at Regent university, which is right here in my hometown. So that's why we're connected in person we're real life friends. We get to go to coffee shops together. I, we really like each other.

We actually do. But I remember when I had the opportunity to come and share with your, your class, which was so awesome. Um, I, I remember looking as a mirror to. The mindsets and what was actually transpiring in their head versus what they were actually receiving. And you can see the people who are leaned in and you can see the people who are checked out.

And how is it like a professor and a mentor in that regard? Do you instill the wisdom from this book into someone who has yet to come in to that hardship in their life? They're they're young, they're young. You know, they, you, you, people have to be willing to receive it, right? You're a coach. Uh, people have to be willing to receive it.

This is what I'm gonna tell you. And I'm gonna be honest with you. Either you're gonna receive it or you're not. So, especially in that class, that's the capstone we expect. So I teach the intro students, you know, coming in, oh, we love business business is great. And I have to deal with a lot of their misconceptions about business.

You know, first assignment we put everything on the board, oh, business is corrupt, you know, just trying to teach you, they take advantage of their employees, blah blah. So we put all those things on the board and we say, do you really believe. you're really gonna be a business major and really believe that stuff.

That's good. Um, so then on the way out, I need to make sure they know what they're talking about. Uh, and, uh, in that same class that you were in, uh, I was giving them a little bit of, you know, tough love and Frank talk. And I , I had one guy in the back of the room who said, uh, you really need to watch your tone so, you know, Some of them, get it.

And then you get evaluations. And I, you know, sometimes I get a little chopped up in my evaluators, but I, you know, hopefully I've earned enough trust with my boss and everybody, student evaluations are tough cuz uh, we don't get everyone to do it. Uh, they do it if they love you and they do it if they hate you.

Yeah. So, um, you don't get a balance and that's good. It's unfortunate, but we have to, I wanna be honest with them. I tell 'em right up front. I'm gonna be honest with. If you're not happy with it, you can tell me, you could talk to me, talk offline or whatever, but I'm not gonna let you outta here unless you know what you're talking about.

Uh, because I don't wanna embarrass the school. I don't wanna embarrass you. Uh, if you don't present the fact that you have some content knowledge here. Yeah, that's good. Um, we try, you know, it's, it's people willing to receive it. So I tell 'em coming in. First day, those kids are in my office. Those, you know, students who are, you know, Pushing me and saying, Hey, I wanna know more about this stuff.

Are generally the ones who are gonna do very well. Uh, a lot of the other ones are just checking a box and you can tell that when you get to the senior class and you're sitting around a table, so I bring 'em in, we have a couple classes and I send 'em down. I say, okay, let's go around the room. What's next?

And don't tell me you're going to school. Cuz you've been in school since you were five years old. Don't tell me you're still going to school. You know, I don't care if you want an MBA or what you want. I was gonna say, says the guy who has time to degree doing what are the next steps. And for half of them, they, they have no idea.

Right. And they're seniors. Right. And they're, they're in their last semester. Hmm. Uh, and they don't know. So, and, but I think that's, that's probably a lot of, uh, students, uh, in this particular setting, but we try you try. and be honest, your, your hope is once in a while, you'll get a note back from them and they'll say, Hey, well, I really appreciated, you know, the way you were honest and the way you did, you know, you're not, you're not doing it for that.

You're doing it because God pulled you out of the Ash Heep and he gave you this opportunity. And, you know, every day I walk across the carpet, uh, that says Christian leader. To change the world and I can't, I have to stop people think I'm kidding, but I'm not. I stop. And I say, God, I am just not worthy. Why, why do you have me or help me to live in this grace and the wisdom to be able to do this because we are trying to help them stand up for discern in the midst of very, very confusing times.

Yeah, I think that's, uh, you know, an element that you've probably seen evolve, uh, over the course of your career in that is, is the climate change of every element of workforce, you know, experiences and, you know, new, new things that have to be, um, Or I don't say, have to be, but are being, uh, dismissed or lack thereof or instilled, dismissed, or instilled in ways that are against our biblical beliefs.

Right. And, you know, I, I don't think like me with bitten faith media, and I'm so grateful that I was just like out the gate. Yeah. We're built on the. Like we're Christian business. We're Christian led we're, you know, we've got Christians all up in here and I love that. I get to exude Jesus in the things that I do every single day by choice, because I've experienced for a decade, what it feels like to do it without him.

Right. And it talk about it being hard. I mean, I constantly felt like, why is this so difficult? How come I have to work 70 hours a week? And though I was in passion, it felt like I was like, I got this, I can do this, but it was very self oriented. . And so I'm curious with all of those evolution and climate changes and knowing the premise of what the Bible teaches about business, which you teach all the time, not even just to students.

Y'all he also is a part of a men's group that meets in the early mornings on Thursday, which is literally this book. I mean, the guys that are in that circle. Yeah. Well, they have stories like. Right. And they're incredible businessmen in our local area. And I've had an opportunity to sit with them a couple times, and that shows me right there, that it is something where actively we have to have those circles.

And if we don't, that's when the demise happens, that's when that checkpoint that Tim Allen had with the kind of rise up of his past demons occurs because there's nobody there to circle up with and be honest. Right. So I worked for a Christian owned business in Philadelphia before I got into education.

So that helped me with this whole idea. A lot of times when we try and hire a faculty member, Who's coming in from a secular work experience or whatever. Uh, we talked to 'em about integrating faith and they're oh, well they talk about ethics. I say, you can't talk about ethics cause you don't have to be a Christian be ethical.

Right. But I, you know, I worked for a business, uh, 14 years, uh, in a very, very competitive industry. We were. Largest privately held, uh, a business of our kind in that industry. And, uh, uh, it was, you know, it was very difficult in the beginning. I had this Christian chip on my shoulder. I expected, you know, everybody would treat one another with great respect and that wasn't the truth.

Right. Uh, you know, I'd be in the chapel. Uh, praying and the CEO was there. We're having a worship service, you know, for something we used to have morning chapels. And then, you know, an hour later I'd be in his office and he's screaming at me. So, uh, you know, you come to realize that Christians. Not the bumper sticker, Christians.

Aren't perfect. Just forgiven. Uh, but Christians are real people who do have to be reminded that it's bigger than what we're doing. Now. What we're doing now is important because we're gonna really touch people's lives and you kind of have to define that. And it was a good book. Uh, I don't wanna Hawk somebody else's book, but, uh, a book that we use in the intro class, uh, by a fellow profess.

Uh, Mike Zicarelli, it's called Christian owned businesses and he, he highlights 50 different Christian businesses in there. And he basically looks at all those businesses and says, how are they representing their values in the marketplace? And he comes up with like eight different ways that they're doing it.

And some of them are doing a one way, some of 'em are doing it a multiple, uh, different ways. So I, I just think it's important for us. No matter. What we do. We are not, I'm not a professor. Who's a Christian. I'm a Christian who happens to be a professor. Christian is first. If I use anything else to modify Christian, that's wrong.

I'm not a white Christian. I'm a Christian who just happens to be white. Right. That's good. So if I'm a Christian, what does that look like in terms of how I deliver goods and services? As a professor, as a business person, what does that look like? What do I want that to look like? How do I represent Jesus?

And the Bible study group has, has evolved over the years, uh, as people who, when they would go to their church, their pastors. Again, forgive me, but this is the way it is, you know, mm-hmm um, pastors would see them as a means to an end. Hey, you're a business person. Why don't you give money to this? Cause yeah, you know, when, when have I had a pastor come to me and say, how can I help you do a better job of serving God in your business?

It's good. Never no good. I've never had that happen. Nope. I can tell you a story. We were down at our brother Antonio's church in Norfolk, right? Uh, it was, uh, they were giving out food. It was, um, uh, uh, defeat the violence, uh, stop the violence, uh, crusade. There was pastor local pastor, uh, VB here. And, um, he's saying to me, oh, your students need to be, uh, they need to be, uh, um, mentoring, uh, youngster.

They need to be, uh, um, holding, uh, um, You know, class of teaching them math and reading and, and those kind, I say, oh, you know, that's, that's good stuff. Uh, I really want them to practice business skills and I'd love to get them into companies doing that, but yeah, they could be tutors and stuff like that.

Yeah. And he's telling me about this vision for, I said, okay, well, that's interesting. I said, I can certainly present it. To our students and see if they're interested. I said, who's gonna pay for that. He goes, oh, the business guys, the guys of the Bible study they'll pay for it. Oh, you know, we're, we're just a means to somebody else's end.

And that's a way again, Sunday morning, Hey, here's a need. Yes. This is important. This need is important. And we as a collective church should support those things. Dogs bark fish, swim, Christians give. Right, right. Gotcha. OK. So we should give to those things, but what you're saying is we're a means to your end, what are you doing to help me be better at what I am doing today in my business, because that's what I need to know.

So these guys have come together and again, business people can challenge business people. And that's what we do. Yeah, for sure. And, and we can be Frank, we've lost a lot of these nonprofit guys who have come, who have come for the money. They want to pitch their idea. Uh, because some of the guys in the group are very straightforward and say, Hey, I'm not gonna give any money to this till I see what you're doing.

Yeah, it's good. So when you think about a pastor who works 40 hours, That's what, what do you do? Well, I, you know, that's my ministry. Well, so my ministry is my business. No, my ministry is I work 40, 50 hours and then I'm supposed to serve in the church as well. right, right. And that's why I'm so passionate in for people on multiple levels of what you said, not only is your business ministry, but also this knowing that, like, I really feel like the call of the person.

Who's gonna be the tutor. Or the call of the person that's gonna support that nonprofit or the call of the person who's gonna support a conference or whatever the need be is gonna be like an internal, almost like a secret whisper element because of that person's testimony. You wouldn't have written this book as someone was like, kept knocking, said, write this book, write this book, write this book.

You would say, I I'm, I'm not the man for the job. Right. That's not my book to read, but like you said, you said you had this back whisper after you had published your original version to say, there's more, let's talk about redemption. Let's get it into the hands of the people who are gonna read it. That's not a textbook, let's get it into the mass markets.

Right. And so that's why you're here doing what you're doing. And that's the vision of the work that God's put on your. Okay. And that's where I think people need to recognize no matter your backstory, uh, there's gonna be an element that now that person is gonna have like reformed ministry towards reformed prisons or that person's gonna have an addiction recovery program inside of them, or a way that they're gonna show up to serve other addicts.

They're gonna host the NA or the AA, um, meetings at that company. Like. So much more that needs to transpire through the lens of the Christian who's serving and showing up to help other people serve. And you can get paid to do that. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to do it. Totally. I'm gonna work my regular now again, so I'm an entrepreneur and I'm launching a business and so I may have to do a part-time.

Yeah. At some point I've gotta step. So I'm an entrepreneur selling books. I really . And, and I'm trying to sell books. I have a tax ID number. I have all these things when I was consulting, you know, I didn't have this stuff, I talk about business, but, uh, now I'm a, I'm a business person I'm selling these books.

And so it's really great. But like you said, I think, I think that voice is clear in many people and it's your job to bring it out. So you're. I've been thinking about this, you're the symphony conductor. And as you are meeting with these individuals, you are helping them with their parts, but your conferences are the things that bring all those together to where they can all play that music together.

Wow. They're all play good. It's the body's, uh, symphony. Oh man. Uh, and so that's where they come together. Well, that's a symphony, but I mean, you're the character, right? I love that. I think that's such a good analogy. Uh, but that's, so that's where those, um, those platforms help them to see where one another is and to encourage each other.

And you bring in guest to say, Hey, let's keep going, stay on the road. We want to keep going. Let's let's support each other. And then maybe part of that is I. You're doing this, but, uh, getting them to kind of provide coaching and mentoring to each other, where they can exchange information, you know, have a networking meeting and say, Hey, wow, that's really cool.

Hey, I know of somebody who, uh, maybe have need of that service and let me connect with you so they can continue to encourage each other as you. Conducting. Yes. Yes. Yes. And it's been so cool to even be in other people's symphonies, right? Like I've been coached by many people. I've gone as the speaker to other people's conferences.

I've gone as the guest and the, the person who's just trying to receive to people's other people's churches and other people's experiences and events. And I think that's a, a key component to any conductor, no matter what lead you are in. Experience at this given time, even in a management realm, you might lead HR, but use, also need support in your role.

Mm-hmm right. And so to make sure. We're constantly ebbing and flowing through that. I'll use my own words, becoming journey. Otherwise we get really stagnant and we get really egotistical in our own, you know, righteousness versus realizing how much we need one another. And I. I need, I need the body of Christ and I want to, to work alongside them, not in a hierarchal structure, that's manmade.

I want it to be kingdom God, and all of us kind of like, let's go, let's wear the flying V and, and sometimes that flying V shifts, depending on who's in front that day. And who's really strong in that. Season and who is the mentor in that role. And it's okay to need to catch win sometimes. And I'm about to go on a honeymoon for 10 days, and I'm just gonna catch wind with my honey.

And we're gonna let, we're gonna let the team take the reins. I don't know if they're excited and they're gonna have a popcorn break for a week or what. Gonna happen, but it's the first time I've ever done this. I, the scenes after this episode where exactly I'll let you know to be continued. Um, but honestly, I am so grateful to have you here.

I want people to know, um, that this book is, it's not just like a good read, it's a resource and it's no matter what realm you play. And no matter what role within the business you are, whether you're an entrepreneur or you're in work, the workforce, it's so critical. For us to open our eyes with an empathetic lens and serve like Jesus did when he was here.

And so he has a subtitle to his subtitle, so he said it earlier and I want people to just capture it. It's the redemption ink. It's why offering second chances makes good business sense. From failure to forgiveness from forgiveness to freedom and from freedom to fulfillment. And that is the role that I think as an entrepreneur, we get the gift to serve in the fulfillment realm of kingdom work.

And so I'm excited to read this front to back. I already have it signed. So I'm really excited about that. . Yeah, I didn't get your, your audible was not signed. I know I need, I should have just exchanged with you. I didn't even know you were, we were gonna cross paths, but that was, I woke up Saturday and I just felt like, Hey, you know, I know this lady, but I really should invest.

I really need to invest. You're investing in me and blessing me. And so I wanted to go through and I really love. I love the theme. Some of the stories are hard to listen to because it was a tough time, but just the theme always becoming, being transformed. You know, I had to wait. I had to wait a long time before I finally woke up.

I think self-awareness is so key. And your book is very much about self-awareness let's pay attention. It's not too late. We can do it now. Let's get on board. If you need the resources, find the resources. Okay. Clarity a coach. Uh, see what God has given to you. What have I put in your hand? He said to Moses use what you've got in your hand.

I mean, it's all. Yeah, it's all right there. So, so good. And it's cool. I'm actually, um, putting together an anthology right now with 20 other authors. Well, 1920, including me. And it's about being a joyful entrepreneur and what it is to experience God's presence and power based on his principles. And so. The blending of business with faith and what are the insider secrets in that regard.

And so we're really gonna dive deep to so many different backgrounds of business, uh, leaders who, what roles they've played and how Jesus has shown up in their life. Oh, right, man. And so I can't, I haven't even read all of the chapters yet, cuz it's an editing format. And so that's coming out later this year and just to allow people who have never written, they're not authors, some of them have been authors, I'm bestselling authors.

Um, but a majority of them, this is their first time being able to share their testimony in this way. That's true. And it's been. So cool to give people a voice. And, and I think that's what ultimately everyone needs is to be UN UN hushed and the society now that we live in it, it hushes us a lot. And shame is an element of that hushing, which is a self inflicted sometimes, but it's often from societal, um, you know, connotations or, or infusing of other people's beliefs or traditions.

And so the church has done it. You spoke directly to it when you're talking about kind of like the poverty mentality. Of the church associated to other people, not just entrepreneurs. And so this conversation's been so rich. I hope people who are receiving, get in touch with Joseph and, and get his book, honestly right now on Amazon it's available.

Um, and it's gonna be even in the, in the paperback version here soon. And so you're gonna get your hands on it. You gotta hold a book. You gotta hold a book. There's nothing better than holding a book and a real live book, baby. Yeah. Amen. You're gonna be speaking on more stages. I have no doubt. You'll be on more podcasts.

How else can people get connected with you? Uh, J BCI at Regent. EDU is my professional email or Joe Joseph J is the book email Joseph J as the. We'll put all you on all that social media stuff. You know, I got Twitter going on. I got Twitter. I love you guys. Just all the links are below in the show.

And if you have any thought patterns towards this, or you get the book, absolutely like one of the best. Valuation pieces that you can provide us as authors is leaving a review. Amen. And so if you could review it and share it, that would be such a gift to him. I know I'm gonna do that. And uh, I want you to, to gift it out, gift it out to other people.

Maybe it becomes a reading resource to your C-suite. Maybe it becomes a Bible study for your, your business, people that are inside of your church, cuz they do. And, uh, maybe it's just something, that's your quiet time reading for you to become a better leader. Um, we need all the things and, and more so thank you for providing that to us and answering the call on, on this answering and, and doing this book.

It's awesome. Thank you. You're very kind. You're so welcome you guys. Thanks for tuning into the fit and faith podcast. We're founders, innovators, and trailblazers come together to commune about real life stories with real life people. I have to fix this right here. Look, he's got Meredith baby. I'm official.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Officially fit in faith. All right, love y'all. Thanks. All right, God bless.

Hey, y'all it's me again. Before you go, let's solidify the flame that was ignited within you today by sharing the spark with your own community, whether it's mentally, physically, emotionally, relationally, or spiritually, I would love for you to take the step right now by declaring your takeaway snap APIC of the episode and share it on your stories or posts.

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