• Morgan Hart

Hell to Well: A Marriage Testimony – With Stephanie Broersma

It can be a fine line between a living nightmare and a dream of reality. We are faced with so many battles in our life. Stephanie Broersma, with Reclaimed Ministries, like most of us, has had her fair share of heart break, shock and pain through her life, at times feeling like what some could perceive as hell. But by the grace of God, she is still here, still alive, fully well and testifying for all that He has done in her marriage, in her relationships, in her home, in her late sisters life, and so much more.

Topics of motherhood, cancer, depression, betrayal, marital mountains, relationships and more!

Reclaimed Ministries was birthed after a confession made by her husband…what was hell blossomed into well.

it is well

A Marriage Story from hell to well.

Reclaimed Devotional

Reclaimed Devotional

To learn more about her ministry or to purchase her 30-day devotional or small group studies that have been designed to “make whole what was broken and betrayed” head over to

Books also available on Amazon.

Listen to the Podcast here:

Show Notes: Hell to Well – With Stephanie Broersma

Tamra: Welcome. Thank you. I’m so glad that you’re here. I’m going to introduce you to somebody that I have become a fast friend with and I am so grateful. Traveled all the way from Washington state, not Florida. If you’re on our Instagram stories earlier, I was like, Oh our Florida girls a year. No, totally opposite coast. But we, we’re excited to have you and I’m so grateful for the friendship that sparked so quickly last year at she speaks conference. And we’ll tell you more about that as today goes on. But the intent of having her come out was not just to share who she is as a person to share her testimony, but just to provide encouragement to women and men and marriages and people of all walks to know that there is somebody greater than ourselves that keeps us aligned. And I’m at peace with everything else that can go on in our lives.

Stephanie: Good, bad, ugly, scary, hard, fearful. So Stephanie has quite the testimony as do all of us as I’m learning. The more authentic that we can become with others, the more real and open they can become with us. And that is, I feel we’re truly learning and true relationship and true love are cultivated. So I’m just excited to have this space as an opportunity to allow people to come inside sit at the table instead of feeling like they’re just peering through a window into what people’s lives can often look like on social media. So welcome Stephanie. She has a ministry called reclaimed and we’re going to learn about that throughout today. But I’d love for you to, for you to just introduce yourself and then kind of talk a little bit about who you are, where you came from, and from this.

Stephanie: Yeah, I’m from Linden, Washington, which is not Florida. I don’t know where I got that. I know. I’m, so, Lyndon is about two hours. There’s North of Seattle. We’re right at the Canadian border. Beautiful little Dutch town. Grew up in that area all of my life. I’ve got like generations of family surrounding me, so it’s hard to escape family when they’re right there. Yeah, grew up in a Christian family, Christian home. I went to church twice every Sunday. Christian schools. And so that’s just, that’s me, you know, my background. I’m currently, I’m married for almost 17 years. This may well be 17 years. Yep. And we’ve got four kids. Our youngest Bailey, she’s three and my husband’s a home trying to potty rainer, so fingers crossed that maybe it’s done amazing. Like, love you, babe. Yeah. Here are the panties. Take care of it. I have to say, this is such a rabbit trail. Potty training is the worst part of parenting, you think? Absolutely. Nobody tells you that. No. Especially because you’re like, Oh, I just got past the baby stage. I get to sleep. They’re like, just kidding. Just kidding. Now you get to potty train starts all over. Not part of the ministry. Could be, could be [inaudible] you know, of its own right. Potty training group. Yeah. So our youngest is three.hen we have Miriam, she’s seven and Charlie, our only son, he’s 11 and then our oldest is 14 Addison. So four kids married 17 years. We do have a brand new puppy.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Now you’re potty training too. I know. I don’t know if it was that stupid. We did not think this through at all. Not so much. But this puppy love, it’s just, Oh, it’s so wonderful. I love puppy breath. Actually. I don’t feel like she has puppy breath. Yeah. But she’s still pooping. Plenty. So, yeah, there’s oven takes. Right. It’s so true. So I love like even just knowing your family and dynamic. I think it’d be a cool story to kind of jump into the fact that you’re, you have biological children, but you also have the adoptive children. So share about how that experience went and what it’s like even now. Just relationally. You don’t have enough time. A whole, yeah. So

Speaker 2: We were married for, goodness, I don’t even know how long we were married for. This was probably 10 years. And we were done, like permanently done. Tim went and had the procedure like there were no more babies. We had to, we had a boy and a girl one free chance, like said done day. Yeah. And so we didn’t, I mean more kids were not on our radar. And Tim read the book by, Oh, I want to say it’s Kimberly Smith called the hole in our gospel. Okay. And he got done and he goes, I think we’re supposed to adopt an adopted baby.

Speaker 1: Oh, another baby from the guy that is really interesting. And this book was

Speaker 2: Can about, you know, kids overseas and in the orphanages. And he was just really, it was pressed on his heart like God kept calling him to adoption. So he spoke this into me. And I then read the book and at a different time, I’m like, okay, I’m starting to feel this calling. Like maybe we are to adopt so you know, a child. And so my heart was starting to grow to the idea and our church family has a huge adoptive family, so it wasn’t like we’d be the only shirt, adoptive family in our community. So we kind of, we prayed about it and a little bit more about our testimony. This was about two years, his confession. So I’m going like RB ready to bring on more kids, like are we crazy? Sure. And so we started pursuing an international adoption. We met with the local social worker and she goes, what about the kids in your own neighborhood?

Speaker 2: And that was convicting cause you know, you think of an option, you instantly think, Oh, like an African orphanage of course. Oh, I got to save this poor child. And at this time was when the big earthquake happened in Haiti. And so we were pursuing a child from Sherm, Haiti, and does door after door was closing until we talked to Joanne, the social worker. And she goes, you know, think about, you know, in Washington state. So our hearts instantly changed and we started pursuing a private state adoption. Wow. And the cool story about how we got Marian’s name as it was about two months before her birth mom. We were contacted by her, by her birth parents and placed with her situation. My oldest daughter, Addison and I were watching the movie the Prince of Egypt. And there’s a part in the movie where Moses runs from the palace and he’s running away from his family and he bumps into his biological brother and sister. And the whole room went quiet. And I heard God say, this is what your daughter will be. Her name will be Miriam. And I’m looking at the cartoon figure of Miriam going like, Oh my goodness, she’s going to have Brown eyes. She’s going to have brown hair, her name is going to be Miriam. And so, of course, I talked to Addison. I’m like, did you hear that? She’s like, mom, I’m quiet. I’m watching a movie. Like, did you hear that? Like, yeah,

Speaker 1: Gotcha. Did you not hear that? And so again, I heard [inaudible]

Speaker 2: God says, this will be your daughter. I’m like, okay, did you hear that one? You know, and she’s like, quiet mom. So I quickly check the meaning of what Miriam means in the Aramaic and Hebrew meaning, and it means long for in wished for. And so I immediately called my husband. I was like, I think we’re going to have a daughter. And I think her name is supposed to be. Miriam is like, okay, love it. And then her middle name is after her grandma and my husband’s mom today. So we had no idea. We had no situation. You know, our family was not matched with a family yet. And a month later we got the call scene. A family had chosen us, we met our birth parents and they looked exactly like the cartoon

Speaker 1: Automatically God in everything, step

Speaker 2: Of the way. So, and all of her biological siblings have M names. So it was just, yeah, yeah, it was, it was perfect. So, and then for her to know that story as she grows into that, because I knew we were talking about the concept of like how children innately long for that connection no matter if they have it, if they’re with their birth parents or not. And I experienced that in my own family with my sibling. There’s just that yearning to know whose I am and for you to gift her with the knowledge of I was longing for. And for her to always know that in her heart she was chosen. Yes. Yeah. And yours.

Speaker 1: And that’s not an easy road. I’m not saying that it’s been easy.

Speaker 2: See, it’s, it’s been really hard. Yeah. there are days where I feel like I’m the biggest failure as a mom because I’m not doing her well. I’m not doing the trauma well, and we do. We parent out of trauma daily, daily. But I mean, I, I don’t have adoptive children. I actually don’t even really know anybody super close that has it other than my god mama who’s amazing. But all of her kids are raised. And so I don’t really see it other than the fact that they’re grown adults now in her heart for them. But she tells me stories all the time. But I too feel that way as a mom that I don’t live up to the expectations that I put on myself or even maybe as amazing as my mom raised us that I didn’t meet those standards or because I’m choosing a different path of like creating and growing something of my own that I feel like the guilt of the mommy guilt that we all always care about.

Speaker 2: It’s so real and so very really hard. And my son, I’ll leave sometimes and it’s bedtime because dad’s at work all day and I’m with him and the end way really all day. And then it’s, when am I going to get it done? There are only certain hours that I can do this and I know I’m called to it. And so it makes it really like a spirit, you know, struggle all the time and seeing your son say, why do you always leave or can you just stay tonight and cuddle me and mommy puts your phone down. How many of us have been told that? Right? And this is Danny’s age when everything is technology-driven. He told me that one day. He said he doesn’t love me like you love your computer. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1: Die dude. I was just with you for 24 hours uninterrupted with no devices whatsoever. Actually, it was 48 hours at the Great Wolf.

Speaker 2: I’m like, I didn’t pick up my phone at all unless I was maybe taking a picture. We were submerged in water, so it wasn’t very often and my heart, I was just like, man, like I wish that I can just freeze this moment and later down the road, like share with you all of the many things that I know are going to come up, what I’m putting in now. So know that like you’re going through something completely different. But as moms, we can also relate with that like guilt pressure of who am I think one thing that I have learned to just repeat and my heart is when you’re having a bad day and when the trauma services and when she’s hurling insults at me and when she’s saying like, you’re the worst mom ever. And when she’s just the grief and the loss is speaking and not my daughter speaking, it’s her.

Speaker 2: The emotion. That’s and that moment I have to realize that God chose me to be her mom. Like God made all those connections happen for her purpose and for ours. Like she was meant to be my daughter and I was meant and called to be her mom. So even though at the moment it’s quite sucky, I want to quit and walk out the door. I have to remind myself that no, no matter how hard this is, I’m still gonna love her. I’m still gonna choose her. Yeah. I’m going to love her no matter what. And through whatever situation we have to come with. You know what [inaudible] of the way that God loves us. Right? I mean, I truly never comprehended the concept of God the father. I’m in my entire life because of my own family dynamics because of what I viewed as a man versus a woman for so long.

Speaker 2: I couldn’t comprehend like him looking at me like a sweet little angel of a kid cause I wasn’t that and I felt unworthy of that type of love. And since having children, like wow, the way that you look at them in such adoration, no matter if they’re saying the most hurtful things to you or they’re being little punks like you just are like, they go to sleep and they’re soundly sleeping, they’re peaceful. You’re like, wow, I love you so big. I love you so much. And that is a part of the way that I was like comprehending how God loves me for the first time in my life. And that’s why I think I said this previously, but like I know that I was a purpose to be their mom first before fully coming into communication, relationship, contact with God because I wasn’t walking it out to the fullest extent.

Speaker 2: I didn’t fully have a relationship with the Lord for my whole life until I was the late twenties and to gather that now, it’s amazing and I’m so thankful and I wish I fully comprehended it earlier, but I was really good at putting on like the Christian face. I went to church, I did those things. I’m not, I didn’t grow up in a church. So it was a little bit different than your story, but I walked out what I thought was being a Christian for a really long time and I often will for it to it as a little see Christian versus a big C Christian. Yes. And there’s a lot of little seed Christians in the world and I don’t think that it’s anybody’s necessarily faults. You can’t like pinpoint one thing or another denomination’s church practices how the gospel’s being treated or preached.

Speaker 2: But there’s this relationship with God that creates the big C Christian, you don’t need a church, you don’t need a denomination, you don’t need anything that is manmade to comprehend that type of love. So I’m grateful for that. And I’m sure as you’ve unfolded your, your experience in your testimony, I’d love to hear like you S you briefly discussed con pre confession versus post-concussion. I’d love for you to share what that means to you and then kind of touch base on, on that topic, of how did you see God then and experience God before and how do you see God now? Okay. So we’re going to go into the big story here, done, done, done. I, so in year seven of our marriage at this point Addison was probably like four, four and a half, and Charlie was just over a year. Tim had, you know, a little backstory during the pregnancy with Charlie.

Speaker 2: There was a little bit of a pregnancy scare right at first. And so during his pregnancy, there was this kind of pulling away from Tim and me, and it wasn’t like I was unhappy my marriage, she just kind of felt a little bit more of a distance between the two of us. A little bit less communication. He was getting busier at work. Certain things I noticed he wasn’t as present for. And so that is the backstory now. I wasn’t unhappy with my marriage. There are just things that I wish were a little bit better. Yeah. so then April of 2009, Charlie was just over a year and timid come home. And the night before I had found a deleted email that just did not sit right. And Tim was made aware of that. But then the next day he came home and he confessed to what was the second hardest moment in my life.

Speaker 2: And that’s when he confessed to a 10-year pornography addiction, which then led to multiple affairs and talks about a brick wall there. I felt so stupid at that moment like you would, you would think that there’d be all these red flags and there was nothing. Now I can look back and be like, Oh, the deleted computer history. Like, why didn’t I notice that? But I had no reason to look. So if you have no reason to look, why are you searching there? Like, my job is not to be an investigator. My job is to be a wife. So I was hit with this big bombshell and in this moment of Tim confessing to me, he was free because the secret that he held onto for so long was finally off of him. Like he was free of the chains. The bondage was gone, the enemy no longer held him captive.

Speaker 2: But it all emptied on my lap. And so that whole burden transferred to me and that is the beginning, of my story. And quite honestly, I think that’s when my faith became real because at that moment, you know like I said, I grew up in a Christian home, Christian family. I knew the Bible like I knew what being a Christian looks like. Yeah. You know, I knew all the steps. I knew what to say when to say it, but until you’re met with this kind of moment and confession, the only thing that had not betrayed me was God’s word. That was the only thing I knew to be true. And so I clung to that. Like it was my oxygen tank. Like that was, that was my lifeline. There was nothing else that was going to get me through that. And like I said this morning over breakfast and the moment of confession, you know, the human instinct is to like kill the person confessing and first them by the

Speaker 1: Recent God. Yeah.

Speaker 2: I sat there peacefully and it was just silent. Tears come down my cheeks. And I remember looking outside and like the whole room just kinda quiet and just came down into the small little, it just felt warm. That was probably the shock start.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I remember hearing God’s audible voice saying it as well and you know, it’s hard to accept that. Okay God, like this is not well how are you possibly gonna make this a good situation cause this is hell right now and this is only a couple seconds into it, but this is hell. And so I clung to those words and I really don’t remember much of what Tim said past that point. But when he got done he fell to the floor and was just weeping for joy because this burden, like I said, the secret that he’d been carrying for so long, our entire existence as a couple dating years and married years, it was finally out. And so he was able to start, you know, living and I am just picking up pieces to shattered, to pick up. And so I raised a church. The financial guy was the only guy at

Speaker 1: This poor guy. I know, the greatest female that’s just completely just broken. And he’s like, oh, I’m sure he wanted to just quickly lock the door. But he let me in and he,

Speaker 2: I found somebody else to come alongside me and met me and helped me with the process. And that that was such a catalyst for me for healing because it really started the right thinking. Yeah. You know versus calling somebody and just starting to beat him into the ground. And so I was met with prayer. I was met with open arms. I was met with no judgment. Tim can fast really well. He had prepared that confession and so he had our kids removed from the home. So I didn’t have that burden of having to like, keep this happy face with the kids around. So he did confession really well if you can have a good,

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that’s SL. Yeah. But he prepared it right in a

Speaker 2: Way so that, you know, he gave me time to process afterward. Yeah. and so later on that night we met with, I met with our pastor, my girlfriend. I did. Yeah. And I had no idea what I was going to do. I had no idea, Tim, at this time is in our basement taking care of the kids. I had no idea. I didn’t know like divorce. Well, why would I divorce him? But how am I going to stay married to him? Like I think I might have to forgive him, but I don’t know how to do this. Right. You know, you’re just as a female, as a fixer, as a conflict avoider and a codependent. Yeah. You want to fix things immediately. And so that’s kinda how I went into this. Like, okay, I’m going to have to go back to work full time so that I can, you know, supply income for maybe if I have to move out. But then, okay, so what about this situation that creates all, shuffles this around? Like Jeremiah and my pastor and his wife are sitting in the living room and he says, I’m just going to tell you one thing, you need to forgive as you’ve been forgiven. I’m like, how dare he?

Speaker 1: Yeah. It’s been less than 24 hours and I just stop my feet. She told me that

Speaker 2: He allowed me just to process, but then he said, in order for you to process, you need space. And so our pastor who had become really good friends and mentors he, he said, I’ll go do it for you because in my vows I said, tell death, do us part sickness and in health. But I never said, Oh, and until you cheat on me, then I’m going to ask you to move out of the home. That was not part of my bow. And so I really wrestled with this idea of I need space and that means he has to get out of the home. Yeah. I wrestled with that even as you’re saying it, like I don’t know if that all that, yeah, it was so hard. And so he was very willing to go. And so he made the drive across town and he said, stay at the house until I give you the, okay.

Speaker 2: He went to her house and he walked in and Tim, we sit on the couch, he goes, it’s time to pack your bags. And so our pastor helped pack the bank, Tim. And he said I’ll stay here with the kids until she gets back home. And then he helped him to the door. He walked into the door and sent him away and I came home and I came home to my pastor and our kids sleeping and not my husband. Wow. Yeah. Wow. So for 10 days, you said you were separated for 10 days. And so what was that like? Time? I mean, it’s such a weird limbo cause like you said, you still didn’t know what the decision was and it’s just a wrestle of inner emotions. And I can’t imagine like you see your husband and your children, so he’s with you every day, regardless of where his body is. He’s in your home, he’s in your bed. He’s in all of these places, like had pisses

Speaker 1: Sure. You’re like wanting to punch the pillow, throw that in the trash,

Speaker 2: Closeout. Yeah. I could imagine all the emotions, but then wrestling with that one statement. Forgive as you’ve been forgiven. Yeah. Yeah. So that first night once they came home from our pastor’s house, meeting with them, my girlfriend’s day with me, my mom was down in Portland. This is another back story. My parents were down in Portland, Oregon visiting with my sister who was awaiting some pet scan results and so they actually came back clear. So they were celebrating and I just didn’t have the heart to call and be like, Hey, in the middle of your celebration, guess yeah, yeah, yeah. Mom. I immediately turned back and she came back home. She drove 10 hours that day to Portland and then right back home she came, she came back to rescue me. And so my girlfriend stayed with me from about nine o’clock to midnight that first night of confession.

Speaker 2: And in that time period it was just like, Linda, what would you do? You know, you just want as much advice as possible and you’re just like trying to take it all in. But the first thing I did after coming home as I took a shower and I had mentioned this earlier as well, but what the confession did to me emotionally and physically, like I felt so dirty because in my head I had those women’s feels on me. I was wearing Timson, I was wearing Timbs lies, the confession, the filth, just the gross Snus of what a pornography addiction looks like. All of that, it was so weighted and so dirty that I got in the shower and I cranked that water up so hot and I was scrubbing my arm so hard, my arms were bleeding cause I just could not wash it off and that there was not enough soap to get the confession.

Speaker 2: I’m just like if I take a shower if I just wash this off, you know, I’ll be clean. But I felt so dirty, so dirty and violated by that confession. And so that night was really hard. I did not sleep for weeks. Sure. 10 days, I lost so much weight. Clothes were just like falling off. My mom was trying to force me just to have water and it just saved me so sick. It was like God put me on a fast for marriage even though I didn’t want a fast. That’s a really powerful process. Yeah. And that, and we were talking about this as well as what stress, what happens to your body when you’re experiencing stress. So whether I, I would love to hear Tim side of the story one day and to hear like what he was doing for that 10 days, cause I’m sure it had similar components of I’m, you don’t wrestle with it the same of any confession of any sort.

Speaker 2: And in at the same time your body is like processing it just like your mind is processing. The funny thing is, so he went to his dad’s after our pastor kicked him out, walked him out and he just showed up at his dad’s house and a dad, you know, obviously when he, when your son shows up with a duffel bag, you know something’s going on. And so my father in law said, do you want a bowl of ice cream? And before he even went into asking questions, they sat and they got a bowl of ice cream together talking about the prodigal son piece for you. But let me give you a yes. So he was there for most of our separation. And this is, I don’t even know why I did this. I spent a couple of days into separation like he probably has no food to eat there. I need to go get him food. I went grocery shopping for him. I bought him food.

Speaker 1: We are believing for a supernatural weekend where we take the time to truly invest in ourselves and our wholeness. You won’t regret it and neither will your girlfriends, so be sure to invite them to, when’s the last time you had an all-girl sleepover? Remember the rabbit room. Now space is limited, but I really truly can’t wait to see you there. Yeah. And on the flip side, Tim would actually pull into our drive. This is kinda creepy. He would pull into our driveway around midnight and he would just turn his truck off, turn the lights off, just to see if there was a light that came on. Because I am this mom with two young children in the home and I’m doing this on my own. Yeah. And so he’s got this burden as she’s now a single mom. Like I want to go in and help her and yet I’m not welcomed into the home. And so it was this weird time of wanting to communicate and not wanting to, and Oh, hi. And I think it was day three post confession. That’s, you know, you talk about grief and the different stages of grief. And I was clearly in my angry stage and I remember waking up and my mom was like, how are you doing this morning? I think it was like Sunday at this point. And I knew that eventually, she would have to go home, home being like 15 minutes.

Speaker 2: You sure it’s not that far away. And they’re like right next door. And

Speaker 1: So I was in my head thinking, I need to learn to do this on my own. I mean, cause I don’t know how long this is going to go for. I don’t know how long we’re going to be separated. Right. So I was like, okay, I need to, I need to get prepared. And I said, mom, we’re going to target.

Speaker 2: She kind of looked ill, Tongan dies. I love target lighthearted moments. So I was like, I stored storm charging. Yeah. You know, target at this point. And I in my head and my [inaudible]

Speaker 1: Broken, you know mindset at this point. I had no Bron. I had not brushed my hair. I had not, my face was so swollen from my crying for so many days in a row. There was no makeup. The sweatshirt went all the way down to my fingertips and then it was one of those sweatshirts, like a man switch. It had. So I had it up. So all you saw was my face and my fingertips and I had baggy sweats that probably had lots of filters on them. Like I looked like a mess. I was

Speaker 2: Hot. Yeah. Yeah. I was a hotbed. I’m like, mom, we’re going to target. And she, she questioned me like, are you sure this is okay? Like, yep, we’re going to target. We’re going. And so she walked about 10 feet behind me just like taking this car through the store. I bought new towels, I bought a new Betty, I bought a new comforter. I bought new underwear for tan. Like anything, I

Speaker 1: Think the pornography addiction. Sure. Now mind you, the affairs did not happen in our home, but anything that addiction had touched. Yeah. It’s gone. Yeah. It’s like to get rid of it. I did not want it to be in my home. And so I bought it all. I was like on a mission. Yeah. And now I am so sorry mom for making her have to go through the store with the kid. Yeah. but on the way home from that, that shopping trip, I had said to her like, I’m just craving this touch and not in a sexual way. That physically made me an ill bet. Like, just like a hug. I just, I just want to know, like, is there hope? I just want to hug. And it just so happened that the way we hadn’t worked out was that so Tim would come home at dinner time and he would give the kids dinner.

Speaker 1: He would put them to bed and then I come home. So during that separation, Oh, so we had every night you’d have like three hours with a kid. Gotcha. and so we had come home from the target and he was in the driveway doing the passed by. And my mom grabbed him and said, just give her a hug. She wants a hug. That was the ugliest, the hardest, the most emotional, you know, practical hug that we’ve ever had. And it wasn’t like, it was like, this is a hopeful hug. This is just, I need this. Like, I’ve been your wife for seven years. We’ve been together for 10 years. Even though he repulsed me, I still crave that. And I’ve talked to a lot of women who they get him. Yeah. They can’t feel like especially with the bond of marriage. And while we’re talking specifically around this, this concept, I think women and men, whoever is listening that they can experience this no matter what the depth or surface of the situation is.

Speaker 1: I mean, even in loss, if you’re, if you’ve lost a family member and you’re experiencing that, if you’ve gone through sickness with your spouse, if you’ve if they’ve handled an abandonment of something through in their life, and I’m walking through that now and just with some family and you just feel alone and like that is the whole purpose of why God put Eve into the world. Yeah. Adam was alone and he didn’t want him to feel those emotions and those feelings. And that was why he gave him a mate. And so whether no matter what type of relationship you’re in especially when in marriage because you’ve exchanged this like deep covenant and then sexual experiences put you into a whole nother level, which is why they say not to have sex before marriage. I wished I learned that lesson. I hope I can teach it to my children cause Holy cow, it just breaks.

Speaker 1: It breaks so much if you can’t hold onto that. And I went through Bible studies after Bible studies being my little seat Christian when I was in youth camp and all of those things. And meanwhile having sex and it’s just, you lose a piece of yourself every single time. So here you are having already done that with your husband and then knowing that pieces of him or with other people like the healing of that I can only imagine had taken, I mean maybe still takes time. Yeah, it’s been, so how long has it been since that time? So next week will be 10 years. That Mark his confession together. Yeah. Wow. So what was like the point where you were like, okay, come home? Okay. So the timing of this is very divine. So he confessed on April 2nd. Yeah. 10 years later or 10 days later was good Friday.

Speaker 1: And at this point, I’m just wrestling with God. Like I don’t want to forgive him. He doesn’t deserve my forgiveness. So absolutely not. Yeah. You know, and this I had read a book hope for the separated by Gary Chapman. Phenomenal book for anybody who’s in this position. It’s not like he lays out like if this is the situation, do X, Y, Z, he just lays out like, here’s what restoration looks like, separation and divorce. And none of those necessarily lead to happiness and less forgiveness is built into the process. Phenomenal book. And so I read that when like in a matter of a night, cause I’m not sleeping, so might as well. Yeah. The couch was my bed for about four weeks. And so I, after reading that, I’m just like, well God, like I want to find healing. Like I want to be healed this, I don’t want this to define me, you know?

Speaker 1: And meanwhile I feel like I had this big target, this big sign that says, Oh, I’ve been betrayed. My husband cheated on me, which makes me not enough. It makes me not a good enough wife, which makes me not a good enough mom. Like was I not good enough in bed? Do you know? So you put all these disappointments on yourself and these failed expectations, and I’m wrestling with the idea of good Friday and accepting God’s love and God’s forgiveness for my sins. And that’s kind of when God said, yeah, but your sins are just as equal as towns. And I think as humans and as, as just believers, we automatically do that. We think that the person who murdered their neighbor is worse off than a little white lie and God CSUN as equal, but it’s a sin consequence. That is the difference. Right. You know, a white lie consequences going to be far different than somebody.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Sitting in prison for the rest of their lives. Absolutely. And so on that Good Friday, I’m just like, okay, like I want what you, what you are offering me through the cross and through you know, the crucifixion and the blood, but I want this but I still don’t want to give him my forgiveness. And so wrestling with that all afternoon, it finally just came to the, to the point where I’m like, okay God, I’m like, fine, like just take it. And so I invited Tim home that night and I told them to bring the communion elements and we shared communion together on that good Friday after the kids had gone to bed. And then I said, I forgive you. And I was hoping for like,

Speaker 2: Oh, like, you know, like this immediate healing

Speaker 1: And everything to go right back into place. But I felt worse. I really did. And I think in order for us to find healing, when we say I forgive you and keeping in mind forgiveness is not, you don’t have to exchange that with the person. I didn’t have to tell Tim, I forgive you because forgiveness is vertical. It’s exchanging with God, saying, I’m going to allow you to take justice over this person. I’m giving you the situation, right. Because I want to have healing, like purge me of the toxins so that I can live a Holy life. Yeah. And so at that moment I did, I felt worse and I think it continued like I actually fell into a depression for many weeks. Just the idea, you know, he came home that night and he S I still stay on the couch.

Speaker 1: He slept on the floor. He was supposed to stay in the basement and after he thought I was sleeping, he would come on the floor. It just in case the kids woke up. And that was like that for many weeks after he came home. And it was just one of those things where, you know, I think for me to heal, I had to really look at myself and go, well, what is mine, why? Why do I feel this way? I met with counselors and you know, you start to realize that you have wounds from your childhood and in order to find your way, you really have to dig all the way back to figure out what your present is. And if there was 1% of our marriage that failed because of me, I had to own 100% of that 1%. And so that took a lot of work.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And I’d be curious, cause you’ve, you’ve mentioned depression, you’ve mentioned that you weren’t eating the starvation component of, or even love and physical touch from the one that was supposed to give it to you here on earth, this special bond. How so I’m, I know it’s a journey, but how do you regain your, your mind-body, soul rejuvenation? Like what practical things did you do in order, to keep moving forward? So there were three essentials. Okay. So my mom and my GoTo girlfriend call me every day for at least six months. And then it was like every other day for that first year. And they would just simply ask me, did you get your essentials done? And those were physical steps that I had to take every day just to start my day. And it was to slap on some deodorant, brush the fur off my teeth, and put a bra.

Speaker 2: And if I got those three done,

Speaker 1: It was a good day today. Yeah. And sadly there was a lot of, a lot of days that even those things were just so much to handle. Like I can’t even, I can’t even process like the idea of brushing my teeth and the energy to, you know, put a bra on mine to like put my face though. Like I don’t have the strength for that. So that was like my starting point. God helped me get my three essential stuff. And there, I mean, they’re pretty basic. Yeah. But very basic. I mean, even, I’m just thinking from the state of like postpartum, like how hard that was and that can reach different people is like moms listening in who have struggled in this season and it’s sometimes doesn’t go away. And you know, people just assume that it’s right after the baby’s born and then magically it’s their first birthday and everything is amazing.

Speaker 1: Like I experienced postpartum like later. And then when I was going through my own timeframe of just like self-identifying, who am I, Oh I am a mom. Cause I see these little faces staring back at me. So I have to own that role, but I don’t want to right now I’m exhausted. I’m mentally and physically and emotionally just I want to be checked out so I can understand like from a depression or even overwhelming anxiety components of I don’t want to brush my teeth today and I don’t want to put on makeup and I don’t want to take a shower and I don’t want to get off the couch. But it’s just like [inaudible] step one thing at a time. Eating was probably that one thing for me to say, okay, I need fuel, I need hydration. And I started with Gatorade, Gatorade, [inaudible] Gatorade for about a week.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. No, it was hard. You know, when I think too, by having we had daily accountability, so we had daily mentors checking in with us. And that was a key component in our healing because we still have those people in place. And I think not just for the one that has the addiction for the one that betrayed, but for the person trying to heal, I needed people to hold me accountable so I didn’t get stuck in the muck, you know, to stay stuck in that, that depression or the victim mindset. Yeah, absolutely. No, I needed people to come in and say, you’ve been, you’ve been forgiven of your part and he’s been forgiven. You know, if you daily remind somebody who hurts you, like, you hurt me 10 years ago, you know, or like, you’re not gonna make it.

Speaker 1: And so you have to, when I said I forgive you, that became a daily discipline. I mean, it was every hour. Sometimes I would text him, be like, I just, I just had to tell you, I forgive you. I’m an email. Like I F I forgive you just so I can verbally speak it out because the moment I would speak it, the enemy had no authority. He had no power over it. So our kids have, our older two kids have no idea what they were doing, but we would have dance parties, we would crank up the worship music and I would just be like

Speaker 2: Stomping around the house. [inaudible] Get up outta here and they would join in with them.

Speaker 1: Me. And it was just my way of physically telling myself and the enemy, like, you have no grounds here. This is my home, my marriage. Get out. Yeah, yeah. There’s that song. This is how a fight my battle.

Speaker 2: Yeah. That’s on. Oh, I can agree to that song all day long.

Speaker 1: At some point, sometimes all you have is to lift up your hands. There are no words, there’s no action. There’s no step that you can take at that moment other than to just let it go. And that’s on any end. And you, and you’re speaking to it right now. Like, it doesn’t matter if you’re on the receiving end or the giving end of hurt cause hurt comes in so many different packages and it’s not just a one time deal. Right. Like you don’t just go through one hurt moment in your life, like be daily for some people. Yeah. I mean I love, and this is going to be a huge shift of gears, a hold on. But the component of like shifting to like your sister and that and that experience and like that’s so heavy and so much her and I love that we were talking about, you know, God doesn’t promise that it’s a one and done situation.

Speaker 1: Okay, you’re forgiven and that’s it. Yes. That’s one and done. You are covered and in he’s got you. But he never says that there’s not going to be hurt. He never says that there’s not going to be a pain. It’s going to happen. Does he cause it? No, we out of our own free will. And then sometimes out of the devil, like bringing on things like what happened to your sister, you know, she’s going to have her testimony shared tomorrow. And that just makes me so excited and proud of her guys. Yeah. so share a little bit about that and I don’t even know I’ve gotten her name yet. I need a crazy all my heart trace. Okay. Trace. Yeah. So our, the confession was in 2009 and 2007, my dad was diagnosed with prostate cancer the December and then four months later my sister was diagnosed with breast cancer at the age of 27.

Speaker 1: And so we’re kind of just picking up the pieces from my dad. And mind you years earlier when I was in sixth grade, he was diagnosed with colon cancer. So cancer was not a foreign word for sure. It was a very common, sure, yeah, sure. It’s very, very close to our family. And so he was diagnosed and Tracy was diagnosed and it was just kind of a shock test. She was not married. She had not dated and it was immediate that she was diagnosed. A week later she had a double mastectomy and then three weeks later she started chemotherapy. And we stayed in the mission house don’t in Portland, Oregon. You know, and it’s, there were so many intimate things. You know, when you have a double mastectomy, you can’t really do anything. You’ve got drains out of you. So we got really close and our childhood prior to high school we were semi-close, but then through our teenage years, we were very distant. There was a lot of jealousy. There’s a lot of tension. We shared a bedroom for 17 years.

Speaker 2: Oh, I don’t know if that was like the reason why, but I had a similar tension with my sister during those years too. They’re just awkward, weird, strange, scary figures or boyfriends can talk to me and we were just so opposite of each other. And so

Speaker 1: We had definitely grown apart. And then when she was diagnosed with cancer, it’s, it’s really, I mean, that drew us together. It was like an immediate thing. And so I stayed with her. Addison was too. And we walked this with her for two years and then Tim’s confession. And so again, it’s not just a one and done thing. Right. You know, I’m dealing with the burden of being betrayed. I’m trying to fix my broken marriage, but I’m also trying to fix my sister and my dad who were processing cancer. Yeah. And so she was diagnosed in 2007. Eventually, it spread to her sternum and her lungs. And then it went to her, all of her bones, like her pelvic bone or hipbone her legs. She eventually lost the ability to do anything physical just because of osteoporosis, which comes from years of chemo that really started to affect her. And so she was a very outdoorsy person. And so we had made the sister pack while you physically can’t go do these things, so I’ll do them for you and then you can come with me. And so that’s when I came up with the 50 by 50, which is state race and every state in the United States by the age of 50 just an organized road or trail running race. And so tomorrow I get my 11 States

Speaker 2: Super excited. Yeah. Her behalf for that much more special. Do you wear something that like, well, you have your tattoos? My tattoo, I picked three

Speaker 1: 19, the pink ribbon and then I do have a tank top that I’m wearing that’s got the pink ribbon and a sauce on the back are she keeps me running and it’s my sister’s name and her, her birth date and her heaven date. And so yeah, so she processed cancer. She, she was such a warrior, like she taught me so much and those 10 years just, you know, and, and kind of a cool backstory that before she was diagnosed, she was suicidal. She was cutting herself. She was, she had an alcoholic problem. Her, depression really took over her life and God didn’t bring her cancer as her out, but really cancer saved her life. And it gave her her purpose in life. She’s always wanted to be a missionary and this gave her a mission field. Like she was so excited.

Speaker 1: Tell people like every doctor, every nurse, like I want to tell you about my Jesus, let me tell you about this person. And so eventually, yeah, it spread to her bones. It then spread to her left eye and then it spread to her liver and that’s eventually what, what killed her. So she passed away two years ago, February 17th, 2017. And that was so hard. That was so hard. And yet it was such a moment where it was an honor to be present with her when she took her last breath. She was not supposed to die in her home, but she also had told me I can’t die in mom and dad’s house. She never talked about death. And if it was, it was just for a couple of minutes and then she would store it away. Yeah. and she had only told me her plans for the service.

Speaker 1: But one thing that I really wanted to capture with her voice, I wanted to freeze-frame her voice and her laughter and her smile. And so a year before she passed, we came up with this secret mission of filming her testimony. And so we, we flew in a friend of ours who’s a filmmaker and producer and T came in and we secretly filmed her testimony side, got like four to five hours of her voice of just this extended testimony. And it was her kids too, or aunt more. And experiencing cancer always seems so scary. Like even as an adult, it’s so scary. And yet as children imagine like there’s all this unknown, cause they don’t even comprehend what that actual kid only knows. They only knew Andy to be sick, you know. So for them, it wasn’t really so much a scary thing like there was, and they’re still in a little bit of fear around doctors. Sure. or if you say like, like my son the other day, he had a really bad cough and it would not go away and lasted for a few weeks. And he goes, mom, I think you need to make a doctor’s appointment. I’m like, Oh buddy, it’s just seasonal allergies. Like you’ll be fine. He goes, do you think it’s lung cancer?

Speaker 1: Oh God. He goes, are you sure? I’m like, no, honey, this is just because you have a cop. Does that mean you have lung cancer? But that is our mind frame, right? Like if you have a headache, you have a brain tumor, and if your stomach hurts, you got stomach cancer. Do you know? Because that’s what’s just been around us. So for my son, his entire existence with auntie was around cancer. He hardly missed a single chemotherapy treatment out there. So both our older two kids were present for her when she passed away. Oh my God. [inaudible] Experience. But that’s now like, just like you said, she’s living, she’s still living out her tests. She is able to share this video tomorrow at your church, but also through the legacy of your children who, while she didn’t have children, she very much had children. She did. And so it’ll be pretty amazing to see how that is cultivated through their testimony and how they’re going to change lives with that strength that so many people don’t have. I don’t first off have it, I’m walking through such an experience right now I’m with someone who has cancer and somebody who just had her double mastectomy and a dear friend of mine. And it’s a scary unknown thing. And all you can do at some point is just, Hey, I love you. And because I’m not right there with them, what can I do? But it’s a hard thing to love someone through. So pretty easy for the person going through it then for us. Yeah,

Speaker 2: It gets harder for us cause we want to fix it. What’s your Enneagram? Do you know any great Joe? Oh, we gotta do this. [inaudible] Must be what got the middle child thing going on. We’re trying to fix everyone around us. Older sister. Younger brother. Yeah.

Speaker 1: So does every time when you’re talking I’m like, wow, we’re so connected on such a heart level. But I agree. I think it probably is easier for them because they just know just like you were in that moment where, okay, what do I have to do today to get to tomorrow? What do I have to do today to get to tomorrow? And sometimes that’s all we have the strength to is in just like any addiction in the 12 step program. It is. What do they tell you? They tell you, you wake up and you promise yourself today, today I’m not going to drink today. I’m not going to look at pornography today. I’m not gonna cheat today. I’m not going to lie today. Whatever your addiction is, I’m not gonna drink. I’m not gonna smoke. I’m not all of those things. It’s one day at a time and one day becomes one month and one month becomes one year and one year becomes one decade.

Speaker 1: So I’m just like amazed at the fact you guys are a decade in. I know. I often tell Brian’s the broken Brian’s like, just stand today. Like, don’t get caught up in all the plans for tomorrow or cable. If he doesn’t do this, then I’m going to have to file for legal separation or file for this. And if he doesn’t choose, you know, redemption. If he doesn’t choose repentance, then I’m going to have to go down this room. I’m like, no, just Dane today. That’s all you have to do is just stay in today. You have to be out for the future. But of course, you can’t get lost in that. And I think it could be the exact same way if you’re backpedaling into the past. And that’s, I mean, honestly we’re fear will take over or the weight of, of not living up to the expectations that you didn’t meet and the worry of what potentially could happen because of this, because of this decision, because of this decision and kids still

Speaker 2: No to like, Oh, sorry, onto the next thing. It was just so quick. They just keep going and keep going. And it’s not about what happened yesterday, the day before. Even if they got in trouble and they got something taken away, they’re just like, okay, no big deal. I’ll go on to the next thing. And I like, so you want

Speaker 1: That for adults to be able to like a release. And there’s only, for me, there was only one way to like fully released my past and it was through baptism and I was never baptized as a little one. And while my parents would take us to church intermittently and I knew I was prayed over and things like that from different people in my life when I got baptized I had loved Psalm one 39 is as far as the East is to the West. So are my transgressions removed from yeah, from my sin. And I got baptized on the West coast by the person who married us. And I say I, my husband and I both got baptized and it was amazing. It was just this out of body experience. I just remember like actually nationally they were taking a video of the prayer we were praying before we went into, right on Cora Nado in San Diego. And I was like dripping

Speaker 2: And shaking cause they shake what I’m seeing. I’m nervous and overwhelmed with emotion and I just remember being like, I’m holding these people’s hands and there are all these onlookers but I’m not worried about all of them, but I hadn’t, It’s not just dripping from my nose. I was really excited to go under just to like fully cleanse myself. But fast forward

Speaker 1: A year later we actually got baptized again on the East coast and our home like allness connected to the same age that we got married and, and it to some people might’ve been like, why are they doing that again? Like they’re taking the limelight again. I think that there’s a constant need for like that restoration and that place of like full release because every day we sin and every year there’s something new that’s uncovered in your, in your marriage, whether it’s something that happens or it’s something you discover or it’s something you grow in, in a beautiful way together. That, that moment specifically because we were alongside Anthony and Morgan who were on podcast one and two to B, we went under at the same time for that one. And the first time we went under separately, and not intentionally, it just was the way that it happened. Our relationships with the Lord are our individual. We can’t, you couldn’t, absolutely, you couldn’t fall into redemption for your husband. You couldn’t get him to the place of just, you know, get to this space so that you can be free. You can’t do that for someone. But being baptized alongside your spouse was a special moment. Holy cow. We were baptized in 2014 we flew to Kona where our mentors are. The paths are that kicked him out.

Speaker 2: I love that. They’re so fun. So

Speaker 1: Kim and Anne were present and we debated inviting family or not, but Kona is just a very special place for us. And so we were February 21st, 2014, we were baptized in the morning. And then later that afternoon in the evening, we renewed our vows. And it is something special to share and baptism together, but just to symbolize to each other and with God, you know, it is, you’ve just mentioned it. It’s so important. I think, you know, in our marriage counseling, it was all about like have to come together and just be, you know, you need to have a United relationship with Christ and it’s a totally opposite. Like you need to have an individual foundation, you have to have your own personal vertical relationship with Jesus Christ because if you don’t, you can’t extend horizontally with anybody else. And so you have to be your own individual people and then together, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Make a unified. Yeah. And the end into no, because we are imperfect that we don’t have the ability, no matter how amazing your husband is, no matter how amazing you are, you can’t fully fulfill that person no matter how great you are in this moment of your life. Yeah. I can’t make Gary 1000% happy. My heart is that I would love to do so. I can’t even physically give him everything he needs. I can’t emotionally, spiritually, none of those things. So to be able to stand on your own two feet in the awareness of the love that you have and the exchange. Even like you were saying like I just needed his touch. While physical touch is a love language and very much needed. You also have to be footed in the fact that you are loved because he is, my identity is here. Yeah. And then to have that extra, that’s where that love becomes so special with that other person. So I am so excited that from all of this, there’s so much good. There’s so much restoration, so much rejuvenation. And you mentioned earlier you said the words well versus hell. Yeah. And like that’s going to be the title.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 1: Absolutely. Is because we go through hell. We do so often here on earth and my heart breaks for people. The more I comprehend the Hills that I’ve walked through in my life, even as a little baby girl, not even realizing at that moment that that was a living hell, but what that hell at that moment did to me thereafter, I just break for humanity. It’s part of the reason that I want testimonies like these share that people don’t get stuck in those moments of hell but that they aspire and they don’t identify them. Like that doesn’t define who you are. No, it doesn’t and it doesn’t define that person or that just anything about it and that is I just decided to meet.

Speaker 2: I am. I just want to give them a hug because I love that you said after you did all this filming, he goes like, you’re welcome. You’re like, what? He literally said after she filmed all of this information on the things she had learned and how she teaches through reclaimed ministries, which we’ll talk about in just a second. She’s in a whole day doing it. In the end, he was just like,

Speaker 1: You’re welcome. Pat himself on the back and she’s like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 2: Oh, you’re welcome for giving you such great content. You’re like, I don’t know if I should kick you either way. I love you. We have come to the point in our healing and restoration, we can kind of have these little jokes. That’s just who we are. Like we joke

Speaker 1: Each other all the time. We do, we laugh a lot. That’s amazing. Laugh a lot. So they have, yeah. I do want you to talk a bit about what has come of it with what reclaimed is, how we met at she speaks, which is an amazing conference, by Lisa TerKeurst and Proverbs 31, right? Yup.

Speaker 2: Okay. I’m like, did I say, yeah, there’s so many again, ministries that we follow. And it was, it’s an opportunity to talk on [inaudible]

Speaker 1: To learn and share speaking or writing projects that you’re doing as well as just to come into ministry with women. There were 800 other women and Stephanie and Stephanie and me, we found you.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Breakfast over coffee, I think it was. Yeah. Tell him. And I’m just like, I came alone and she came alone. Like, do you need a table? Yeah. Great. And so I think,

Speaker 1: I think that probably the community is probably the most amazing component and I lose so much from that. And reclaimed was one of the reasons you went. So I’d love for you to share and suggested in the last year how much growth that’s had. I’m so excited. So I, two years after confession, our circle was so small, which is a huge vital component to healing is not to get all the opinions from everybody. Good advice on anything. Yes. Yeah. We don’t need all of it. No. And so our circle was so small, but we were asked by our church to share our testimonies with our church body, which is about 1500 people. And so that was terrifying because there were family members in church and friends that had no idea. And so this, this idea of like sharing our dirty laundry with the small-town community that is very pretty and, you know, doesn’t share masses, we just sweep them under the rug because we have to keep up our outside appearances.

Speaker 1: The whole idea of stepping out and saying like, we’re failures, we failed at this, but we overcame, let me, let me share with you. You know, so that is really what started the ball rolling with this ministry. And Tim’s testimony played. And then three weeks later my testimony played about forgiveness. The CBN TV station, the 700 clubs, they got ahold of it. They then were like, can we have your testimony? They came out to our house and they had done a two-day session of filming with us and they’ve aired that testimony twice now on their station. And that is really what started reclaimed from that point on, women’s started contacting me saying, can we meet for coffee? And so for about two years after that, I met with women and just kind of encourage them. I wasn’t, I mean I, I went to beauty school. I am a [inaudible]

Speaker 2: Style. I am not a counselor. I have no, you know, college education for business or any of that. Like I went to beauty school, so God uses anybody. Don’t look too close in my room. Usually the lighting. So I just go in.

Speaker 1: God, what do you want me to do? Like I’m meeting with these women, I’m encouraging them. I’m coming alongside and mentoring them, sharing my story, giving them some advice, here are some resources locally that you can utilize. And then the woman turned it on me and said, why haven’t you started a support group? Like there’s nothing, my church is not meeting my needs. My pastor is saying I’m the problem and it’s because I’m not having enough sex at home. That’s the reason why my husband cheated on me. My pastor said it’s not masturbation, it’s not a pornography addiction unless he masturbated in front of the computer. Okay gracious, we’re in the 20th century.

Speaker 2: There are multiple ways. Yes, yes. And so

Speaker 1: These women are being left with nothing and they feel alone and now they’re feeling betrayed by the church because the church isn’t coming alongside them and helping them with this. And so these women are just saying like, can you write something? Can you start something? And I’m going like a beauty school.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I’m not a writer. Like this is not mean. So I kept on being

Speaker 1: Challenged and eventually I wrote a six-week curriculum that then turned into a 12-week curriculum guide, which is your reclaimed small group guide. And so this is the leader’s guide. This has all the information for a leader who has the experience of the trail to lead a small group of women, usually about five to seven women at a time to take them through this course and to really work on understanding first off that we can only change ourselves. We can’t change other people. But really focusing on personal healing, focusing on the woman’s heart. And, you know, the hardest person to forgive was me. It wasn’t Tam, it was me. Wow. You know, and so we dive into the topics of betrayal and triggers and weariness and we work through topics like forgiveness and how to trust again and what does hope look like and what does the first date look like. Whether it’s in a marriage that’s working on restoration, whether it’s a separation or whether you’re a woman who has gone through divorce these women come into these groups and it is powerful, is such a humbling experience to walk with these women. And so that is something that has been birthed out of my own experience. And then with that was the reclaimed 30-day devotional, which essentially is a small group just in an extended form. And so you’ve got beautiful, all of my intimate details

Speaker 2: In there. There’s a lot of, yes, a lot of juicy stories on there. So

Speaker 1: You’ve gotten their parts of my journal, you’ve got other women’s stories in there, so you feel heard, you feel like you’re not alone in this journey. Wow. You’ve got the devotional, you’ve got questions that really start to get into the dark places of your heart that are hard to process but are necessary for healing. And then scripture verses, you know, what does God say about this? And so that is the journey. And over the past, well since she speaks last July God has just taken this and we are now an official five Oh one C three nonprofit organization. So that’s really exciting. And we’ve self-published these books. You can find them on You can also go to reclaimed and you can find the links there. And we’ve got small groups across the United States happening. It is just, again, I just keep on saying it’s just so humbling to be a part of it.

Speaker 2: Amazing. And I know based on your journey here and your testimony being shared both this way, but also intimately with some people locally, that we’re going to have a small group of this somehow that you guys are going to be welcome to come into. So if you have any questions or any thoughts I might not be the right person to answer it, but I know somebody who is. And so I’m just, I’m so thankful for you being authentic and open and, and sharing all the hard moments. And I think the biggest thing is the comment about the 1% like that will literally never leave me. I think that that’s one of the most.

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