• Morgan Hart

Generational Heavy Lifting around Ethnicity with Sabrina Hoggard

Hey podcast fam – coming to you stronger today, more buff! And I am grateful for the difficulty that comes into play when we lift heavy things.

Today’s conversation about ethnicity is with someone who I love and admire. She is a health and wellness specialist both in the kitchen and the gym. And if you check out her arms by viewing the live version of this on Facebook or Youtube which happens a couple weeks before you hear it here, you will see the guns that I’m talking about!

However we did a bit of lifting in a different way. This was lifting our understandings, this was lifting our eyes, this was lifting veils, this was lifting away heavy understandings that didn’t serve purpose. It was lifting and carrying away bricks and I am praying that the ears that listen to this will truly comprehend the depth and heaviness of this conversation with fresh eyes and with fresh ears in a new way, so you will hear this conversation in a new way. So the conversations happening around equality, ethnicity, racial discriminations, that there are so many more layers than the deepest social media posts and even our own generation can understand.

But here we are…doing the heavy lifting. And I am honored to stand beside Sabrina Hoggard today and any day as a sister, as a friend, as a fellow mama, as an inspirer, as a voice, as someone who sharpens me and I know and am hopeful that you will feel sharpened by her in the utmost beautiful ways. She does it tactfully, gracefully and through the lens of God himself. I hope today’s episode blesses you. I hope you learn something. I hope you take something. And I hope you put something down.

And I was told recently you have to unlearn to relearn, and I feel like that’s exactly what I did here for this conversation, in the preparation prior to and the simmering and lamentation afterward. So be blessed friend.

Referenced Resource:

Be The Bridge by Latasha Morrison –

What does the Bible Say About Racism –


Sabrina Hoggard

Connect with me, Sabrina Hoggard

Show Notes: Generational Heavy Lifting Around Ethnicity

So the the right, right. I am so excited to be here with a dear beloved friend, Sabrina Hoggard is not only a beaten, but she is a health enthusiast, a mama to two that I had love in a door, they’re incredible, we’ll get to talking about them here soon, a white feet. What I like to call hot hobby, because I’ve got one too, I know how it is. And she is just a sister, and ultimately that title is what matters most to me, and one of the reasons that I was so honored to have her come on today’s show and just chat, you know how I love to just have an unproven questions and opportunities for us to just come together and have what is not going to be a coffee conversation… What are you drinking today?

Water water. Yeah, I, I, I would, I’m going with a lion Stevia kien limit, love soldier water today, thanks to my hat, Hay, who comes home with random juice is… But I, I think today has a lot of intention, I brought Sabrina on specifically because I feel like there’s so much going on in the world in conversations that I’ve always interested to come to you about… We’ve been friends for four years now, which is crazy to think about, and since day one, I’ve just always felt like there was more to the conversation than there was less, and it was always based and premised on truth, and I think now more than ever, that truth just needs to continue to be shed and cast into the world, so thank you for being met, friend that I can rely on and for being here today.

Of course. And honestly, thank you for having me, first of all, but thank you for being someone that wants to know more, that wants to learn… That’s really big. I mean, I can be the friend that is always ready to talk and an enlightenment, but if you’re not someone that’s willing and ready to receive, then we really go nowhere, so we’ve been able, I feel, to keep the friendship because it’s mutual a give and take, it’s not just one side or the other. And so, thank you. Yeah, yeah, I think that’s really good. It also makes me feel like I should have done it sooner. And I feel like there’s so many people… I’m gonna speak specifically for my white friends who who are feeling that way, and it feels like a weird guilt that I wouldn’t even have recognized had things like this not occurred. The thing is, it’s always been occurring… Yeah, it’s not new news.

I’m really grateful that, however, this specific situation with George Florida arose that it’s something that has now come into conversation in a way that you can… Not look that way. Right, yeah.

And so for that, there is goodness in the hurt and the pain and the anger and all the emotions that we should feel, so I’m grateful for that, and his life will always be remembered in that capacity, so that’s a good thing. Yeah, you leave here, you wanna leave some sort of legacy and as painful as it is to have seen the way that he died, I mean, look at what his life is representing now, look at the outrage that not just this nation, but around the world, you see people from different countries, even like, this is not okay. This is not right. Yeah, yeah.

So it’s horrible, like I said, as it is, and my heart goes out to his family, his mom, then he cried out for even in that moment, I hope that they can look at this and see, but look at what my family member, my loved one’s life is leading to now, yeah. Yeah, it’s really amazing. So there’s so many different directions that we could take this conversation, and I know I called you earlier this week just in tears after listening to Steven Vedic and John Gray kind of explore this conversation, and I really just leave it up to the Holy Spirit, and I feel like that’s all that we can do at this point, but I do think you mentioning that there’s this willingness that that ultimately has to be the answer versus… Questions are good and they should have… We should have the ability to have conversation about it, but the thing is, is like, Where is the heart of your question coming or night.


And so I think to start is just like, Can you share a bit about your story? And I know when you were even sharing, you were like, there’s parts of my story that even I could carry guilt or shame around, so just unpack that and who you are and when… Where Sabrina came from.

Oh, okay.

That I don’t really talk to myself a lot, especially like on camera.

Yeah, yeah, I see it on a… So I obviously grew up in black… Yeah, yeah.

Here on a inlet.

Thank you. I, I had both of my parents in the home. My mom actually stayed home with us, so I always had that example of Mom being home, dad was always a really hard worker, I had two siblings, and we had a home that was… It was not perfect at all, but definitely filled with a lot of love and also probably a lot more shit than I would say I want my children to be right now with everything that’s going on, honestly, we’ve been… My husband and I have been very pro-open with our children with everything because… Well, it affects us.

So within our community, whether we were black or not, it’s still affects… Absolutely, and so I love my parents early, they raised us in a Christian home, they did their very best to raise us, and so I don’t think a lot of the injustices and prejudices and things of those, if that nature became real to me until I became a mom, yeah, and I’ve got my own now, and so I’m like… My son, being in an academy that he’s in, and he’s the only black kid in his class, and just different things that he’s already dealt with, and so… Honestly, I would have to say that it wasn’t until I became an adult, a wife, a mom of my black children that I really started to realize like, This is real.

I was really happy because we were very child growing up, right, so we weren’t in circles or areas, or maybe I just didn’t notice it, I don’t know, maybe my parents just did a really good job, you had a… Yeah, about shielding us, but I think also maybe out of their fear that we would turn into something that they didn’t want us to turn into, that kept us away, they exposed it to you… Absolutely, so they kept us out of a lot of different arenas that would… Made me be considered in the black culture to be the norm, how the lack ultraso… We weren’t necessarily raising what society or what the black hole would say is a normal black home, because there were so many things, I think that was their way of trying to keep us from going down a different path or to… And not in the way that it’s saying I’m raising to be black and proud, then they may go down the wrong way, but because they were trying to do what they thought was best. They did children from a lot of those things. Yeah, so interesting that that plays regardless of ethnicity, that please… To every parent child relationship and racial discrimination, even being that, even Christianity comes into play in that regard, do you allow them to go public, do you keep them in this place… So you go to this church, does this denomination have a conversation that’s different than what we want them to be? And so I think that it started based on your motherhood journey has really been a common thread for a lot of us as women having this conversation, because our generation and the next generation, and there after this is really where the change happens. That’s right.

And we have to be understanding that the love that we’re showcasing in our home has to be the love that we want them to mandate to the world, the… And so with that, similar in my regard in my home, if my love that was taught to me wasn’t cast out for everyone despite color, despite denomination, ’cause I wasn’t raising a church despite anything, then my only example is to continue as it has been shown.

And so that’s why bringing our children into a multi-ethnic church mattered a lot to me and my husband, and still matters, and when I walk into an all white church, I feel awkward and I’m like… And I’m like A, what?

Where is Jesus in to see heaven? And I want that everywhere I go. And so I love that I can know that I can always come to you for more things than just race discussions, but it’s more so about mothering, and that mothering is how… See what your generation of child is gonna be a…

I think even with your son being in a school that he’s the only black kid in that room that goes to show your parenting ability to say, Be like BU and be that black to child knowing the what things they have to face.

I was a lot reading… ’cause again, I just wanna be informed. I think for me, that too, I love that it’s like… Because I wasn’t brought up understanding or not understanding, it was almost like they tried to put a veil of everything’s okay, okay.

And yet, here we are in this horrible predicament where now, because of how the public school system books are and how things are shielded, we’ve been so shielded that now I feel ignorant and I’m like, Wait a second, this is a my fault, and I filtration.

And so we as a white people, I think anyone outside of being in that specific ethnicity needs to recognize and be okay and comfortable enough to raise their hand and say, I have no idea, no idea, I had no clue. And that’s really sad in literally pings my gut in such an uncomfortable way, but without facing that uncomfortably, we stay stagnant and my kids become… Should it?

Yeah, yeah. Well, honestly, like you said, it does start first at home, children to school expecting that, but they’re gonna take them everything because you know as a parent, it’s your job first and foremost, but you do send them thinking they’re gonna give them the higher education at of the right in the… In that, the grid.

But for instance, I know I grew up, I ran each year were one… Yeah, history was up until maybe sixth or seventh grade.

Virginia’s history. Yeah, and I remember more so now with my children being in school when they come home and they had the study, I’m always helping them study for their test things, and I remembered a part of the studying being why the lines were necessary because you know… Were necessary agriculture and got to be… They just really needed the hands of these slaves, and I was like…

And that’s what you’ll have to learn for the test, like these are the moments you…

I agree, this is what I started saying. This is, I need to get… Let me jump into the school some more, see what other things you’ll be doing your learning you… So I started at that point, I’ve always kind of done… I’ve always done my own teaching at home for them, but then I realized, Okay, we need to take it to history also because I need you to understand that this is not… Okay, yeah, ’cause you were in like reading and math and that was a big thing, let’s get you advance over here, now I need to teach you some truth over… That’s good. And so by fifth grade, my son, he’s now about to go to eighth grade on this, but fifth grade, my fifth grade, I had done enough teaching, I was so proud, he came home and he told me his teacher wanted them to do some type of presentation about the hardships at the Europeans faced coming over to the Americas to that much planted things. Right. And so He raises and he said, Can I do mine on the hardships the Native Americans face when they were invaded upon… And I was like, What did she say it to?

That’s not a part of the curriculum.

I said, But you knew that this may be so the… Because let’s not change the net must be real about what it was, and I think because not… No, yeah, because that’s the way he’s the re-writes it.

Oh, they just had the Native Americans move over here to kinda give them more space like… So i, i… That’s the way the picture is paying it in these books from elementary almost all the way through middle school.

That’s what you get. So it’s not necessarily the individual’s fault that grows up and says, Wow, I’m really ignorant to this stuff because you’re expecting that we went… I go to school, my teachers are giving me what I need to know, right, and it’s really not all written in there to find out… Remember, high school is when we really start kinda digging deeper and we learned about MAT Turner, the Illini, and then I found out that I’m actually into that corner, and I remember it initially because the teacher was teaching it in the way that he taught it, and he he went crazy and kill a bunch of white people, and I remember being so ashamed, and I will never tell anyone I’m Ken to him a… It took for me to get older to realize if my family’s being strict away from me, if I saw my siblings and my mom being rated and abuse and beating in there to him, what I may be… So like God was telling me it’s home to rebel is home to fight, is time to… Do you know what to be like I… And so I had to change my mindset because the way I was taught it… Yeah, I felt the shame.

You know, I felt a shame too. So he was crazy. Yeah, field all these poor little innocent white people in it, so I had this guard up in my heart for white people because of the way… Honestly, that history was taught, and honestly, I would say my parents were… Wonder if I never take anything away from them, but I don’t ever remember sitting down having the conversation because you’re black, these things you may face because you’re black, the ERA.

And I regularly have these conversations with my children because they’re important for them to understand… Absolutely not for fear, but to understand why we drive and we push the way that we do because for so long, we just weren’t supposed to… Right, weren’t supposed to be able to speak well, we weren’t supposed to be able to read it. Right, weren’t supposed to do these great things, and so that’s something that’s important for sure is fundamental without it, it excuse the entire system even further into the hands of the people who want to have it, and so this is the whole thing with even the riots or conversations breaking out and people thinking that they’re not the right way, it’s not the right way, and A… Who knows what’s gonna be said after this podcast, a, but my heart is that, and I know your heart is shared, is that ultimately all… This gets the answer. You go, now, history book, now a public school, no discussion that happens in one home, because it’s gonna take all of us together to come together and truly show the hands and feet of the Lord and truly show what love looks like sitting across from the table and having conversations and bringing our kids into the fold of that and people to know that this exists right now, so it’s not something that was written, it’s writing. We’re in the righting.

And so be a part of the change, be a part of the voice, be a part of the fact that all lives matter… Black lives included, Black lives matter, you guys.

And so I was actually looking up when I was doing some research trying to find, Oh no, Is it gonna freeze while we’re talking… I’m gonna take that as a Holy Spirit Guster to just ignore that.

And I was just looking up things and it was talking about the percentage of people who… Black people who are affected by rules and laws underneath them, committing suicide or committing adultery or committing murder, how often do they go to jail versus a white man, how often do they get pulled over, how often do they get ticketed, how often do they run into situations with the law, I mean, so many different things and the staggering statistics will literally make you wanna throw up, and it literally has nothing to do with the color of their skin, but it’s based on the premise of what has been taught to all these people, people prior to without just like me, without them even knowing that they were taught that, and so it feels like an injustice to humanity more than Justin injustice to one color versus another color, and this is where we have to turn back to God and say, God, what did you say, what is the purpose of this? The fact that our ethnicities are celebrated in his eyes and that we are all under one race, these things are fundamental to us moving forward, and so we have to educate ourselves though, because if we just say, Yeah, all lives matter, and this is great, let’s move forward. They’re still in ignorance to the fact that… How is today unfold? For my fellow brother, we had one of the girls who in Cortese was going home from a traditional photo shoot with all of us girls, and she actually saw her son pulled over on the side of the road and… And she had to pull up behind a and see five cop cars to her one son was, I think it was a registration thing, I don’t even remember, and she had to yell and fight for her son and he was doing nothing, and so the fear implanted in a mother, I can only imagine, because I haven’t had to deal with things like that.

And so I guess my next question for you, Sabrina, would be, as you’re leading this front for your home, as you’re teaching your children the truth and actually having them activate in society as a strong black woman, in a strong black man, how can me as a sister instill that in my kiddos as not a white man or a white woman, but as a brother and a sister of the human race… Well, I would say, I know that you don’t do a lot of TV and you’re…

I got I… You had resource. Technology is like where we are…

I will, I’m gonna tell you this, I remember my daughter being in K-4, I remember telling me… I don’t know if I told this anyway, she was in K-4 and I put her hair and these a puff like this, but it was two on either side and I was just like, Oh, she’s so cute, had taken a bill a picture in the morning and she comes home and she’s like, Mom, you did my hair different for tomorrow.

What do you mean different? And so she’s like, Well, my friends such as a long pony, how that moves, and I was like, Well, maybe we have coiled hair that comes up, God bless us with almost as if a crown and grows up as a cry as caught. Yeah, and so… Yeah, but they said, my hair was crazy, I said My hair looked crazy in school, I said, Well, well, a few of my friends, they said, My hair is crazy, and I don’t wanna have crazy here, I just wanna have hair this like theirs, and so in that moment, what I realize is, well, of course, I didn’t become angry with this for your old… As for Lato, my child, that her hair was crazy, but what I immediately registered, what immediately register my mind was their parents are not teaching them what it looks like to love all different time, and it’s not even that they’re telling them, Oh, you shouldn’t like this, it’s the fact that they’re keeping them ignorant from it, show them… Give them that example, show them videos that have people of all different cultures and all different… Give them that. So that is a grow older, it is not odd to them are weird when they see these beautiful coil puffs and someone’s here, they don’t assume that because all I see on TV at home and books, because let’s be real, you don’t have to be intentional to go rob book that’s filled with white children… Yeah, right at… Right, they’re there, right? You have to be intentional now, and it’s getting better now, for sure. To go and specifically find a book where the characters are brown, are the characters or yellow, and you don’t get that all the time.

If you go on the store to buy a doll baby for your child, you got a hold that the… God it, from all the different… I can have a rotator, I can have black hair, that’s why I have body can literally get cleaned out quickly of the Brown Dog, but I would say, especially for a little girl, for instance, by the Dolls of all different colors, because you want them to see that representation at home. Yeah, that’s where it starts, yeah. So then when they get out, they don’t feel like, Oh gosh, wow. It’s so amazing that your hair does, it actually… It’s actually kind of weird ’cause I’ve never seen anything like this before a right now child to and encourage or make her believe that, No, your hair is beautiful. Just the way it is. It doesn’t have to change, right.

But that other child had no idea, so just like for me, culture is huge, and Al, my daughter’s on an Russian son is learning French. We’ve always just loved all different cultures, we’re right now studying, we just finished South America, we’re doing all the countries and capitals, and it’s important to me that they know also well, what language do they speak there… What is the climate like? Okay, if this woman, what does that probably mean about their skin that they have maybe darkness in because it’s really sunny or… I want my children never ever to go in a place and say, Oh, they look weird because they don’t look like what I’m used to see. Yeah, they should be used to see all different cultures, it’s all beautiful.

It’s a ritual, you wouldn’t just paint your house one color and only teach your kid that one color… Right, it’s so… Sure, you would never do that.

You want them to learn all colors, purple and blue, there are different use shades that are so beautiful, what’s the same thing when it comes to cultures and races, and so teaching them that there is a difference, become beautiful, these curls flow or her is more straight, but look at how beautiful or look at how this had as a…

I guess… Yeah, expose them. Yeah, remember my daughter being like, I really want beads like that, I’m like, I want you to feel that. I won’t be… And last night we were at dinner and one of the gals has bread and their way down to the back, and I was a CO, I that you… It looks really cool. When she has one and she’s like, Can I do that? I’m like the… It just would be little dirty if you did that on… Not do that.

So it’s just… It really is exposure.

Yeah, and in that exposure. Sharing the beauty of it. That’s right. And I know that that is a God-made thing. There’s nothing about that that is American eyes versus not… Now, what gets American is when that little girl actually gets her hair straight and in her hair is straight for so long that she doesn’t even know what her actual curls look like because she was never celebrated or felt comfortable to be able to wear like that that’s right, and that breaks my heart, because the beauty of that is that our girlfriend who said she had had straightened her hair, done it for so many years that she didn’t know what her regular Collie… She just shaved it all off last week… Oh, and I like her a AAA, so I can’t wait to see as her hair growth is for her to just own that and I don’t know the story behind it, I should ask her, but she’s married to a white man, she has beautiful mixed kids, and so I wonder what that was like for her, and I think beyond just what we look like from an outside, it’s like… It’s the heart matter.

That’s where we have to keep going back to, is that ultimately, if you believe in this, you believe that we truly all are Ken, do you believe that? It doesn’t matter what state we live in or where we came from, we all came from one blood line, and we all believe the same color, and so I think utilizing resources like that, I think for me, our library at Friends School are… Our new library, and it has been amazing, and I didn’t know these books that the kids brought home for this distance learning time and I… Sorry. My computer’s going crazy.

And so there was this book, it was called to Saul away, and it was all about this a read it you have to do is so we… And this little girl, she was so sad about how black, how dark her skin was, and she wanted to be like her lighter, more beautiful sister, and after that book have had my eyes exposed to… There’s actually been a lot of conversation about the hierarchy of even within the black community of, oh, her skin is lighter, so that back in the day meant that they were some affiliation to a white man, that’s it, which then means that they get hierarchy in anything outside of slavery, with hiring. With being more beautiful. And that just kills me. And listen, let me tell you, I love that you’re sitting here, you are educating yourself, I’m gonna tell you as a black woman that does more, because even though you’re asking me questions, you’ve also done your homework because you want to know… You wanna learn more, and that’s really big, and just sitting around and just waiting to ask someone, but really doing the homework, it shows that you may not know all the things, but you want to educate yourself and become more knowledgeable in that… That means a lot.

Yeah, that made you see me, and that’s huge, but that is… You’re absolutely 100% correct when it comes to that, unfortunately, that’s something that has followed our culture throughout time, all your darker…

I feel like now, things have definitely gotten better, it’s not over, it’s not completely done, but… Well, what were we told in slavery? What were we told then all the light of people were better, you better try to pass for white, that’s your best bet.

Even when labor was over, the best bet was try to try to pass for light.

Yeah, and so that’s just something that we don’t even realize, I think sometimes, because I think the way society changes and evolves, I think we feel like, Oh no, I’m only saying that because… No, it’s because what happened so long ago, right, it’s almost as if we’ve been pitted each other, pit against each other for so long that we find excuses and justifications, but no, it is what it is. This is what happened. But we need to stop it. Absolutely. We’ve gotta stop it. At some point we have to say, It stops here.

Absolutely, and it can… And that’s the biggest thing, is they say, We the people, we have the voice, like, this is our ability to do this, and just in our city alone in the last two nights, the IFL marches that have had… And I’ve seen girlfriends who are white friends who are getting ridiculed for being there, and yet their following is Christian-based, and I’m like, Oh man, and one of the things that I was reading is saying that the whole problem actually didn’t start in the Americanization of it, it started in the church, and that’s from all the denominational breakdowns that have happened for eons before even come into America, where the Canaanites and Israelites and all of that, you can read it on the Old Testament, that slavery has long been an issue before America created what it did, it’s the catastrophe that it’s still happening when you’re all under a new covenant that we are all human, we all have made mistakes, but it’s our job now to live out that love and people aren’t doing it well, and that that’s so hard and disheartening. And I know that we also have the ability to continue that change, and so it is gonna take all of our brothers and sisters, and I wanna talk even to… I have a friend who’s Egyptian Filipino, I wanna bring in these Asian women in… Where are they in this conversation, I’m curious because I honestly haven’t seen a ton of them rising up to have conversations at all, and so what does that mean? ’cause it takes all of us coming together, not just white and black, and that just being in one against another, right.


I think the important thing, like you said, is also while I may be fighting for this for my black children in the future and for my life and things, not to neglect also what other minorities and in ethnicities may be struggling with and going through as well, because it is something that minorities have always had, maybe bounces back and forth, there’s always consistently the issue with black I at a… Not that haven’t changed. Yeah, things have evolved, but that’s always there, but there are also other races and things, and I’ve been reading a lot and just kind of learning the history of the Europeans dealings with the Philippines and with China, and there’s always this kind of domination takeover thing. And those things are… They keep going with people through generations, so I would love to actually sit over there while you’re in having those other people or they are not behind, the reality are the in… But this is so important, it’s so good, I’m so grateful for you for sharing and it’s just… It is something that I hope that as people hear. Ultimately, they hear us constantly going back to the fact that God doesn’t want this… Yeah, but at the same time, he has ultimate control and ultimate understanding and an ultimate plan that we as the people, as his sons and daughters need to rise up and lean on him instead of leaning on our own nature because our own nature is sinful. It will mistake, we will go back to greed and all of the things that aren’t fruits of the Spirit, if we don’t continue to align with the word that’s right, and whether we intentionally do it or not is the enemy is constantly gonna be there, and… I just pray that people can come into understanding the Bible in a way that they’d never have before, because there are certainly scriptures that you could read without knowing context that can skew this entire conversation. Yeah, and that is what makes me so upset because it does start in the church, and then if we can… And the church is home, right? So I, I say church, I’m not envisioning a steel, I’m envisioning our homes that then go into this church home of four walls that then go out into the world as we’re called to do, and so it’s just there’s so many more deeper conversations that we can continue to get into, but I think ultimately is just about coming together a ringed or desire ultimately for the next generation, which is our babies, and I know that there are thousands of moms in this conversation that are gonna continue to wanna rise up and do that. It’s just a matter of what are the resources and what are those conversations look like? One of the things that I’ve been reading recently came for last name lats, her first name to be the bridge book that I mentioned to you, she was talking about the part that you were about the history that feeds into where we are today, into our individuals, individualistic, space, but then also are collective and that we need to be in a state of lamentation, and I didn’t really know what that meant, and so learning about the state of lament and being at our feet and on our knees in front of God… They did it after I had already re-read about it on Sunday when in the black pastor was standing there and he asked white people to get on their knees, and I wasn’t there, but I had a pastoral friend who was there and she had the whole thing on video, and I was thinking, well, so I… And in that moment, thinking, what would I have done? And you see just the half of the congregation of people get on their knees and you hear white people crying out, and you hear black people crying out, you hear kids crying out, you… Your grandma’s crying out. And to just see, yeah, I see that that’s the state that we need to be in, and it’s not about lamenting over the fact that my great, great, great, great, great grandpa had a plantation right in Virginia, and here I am generations to follow. Did I live in any sort of repercussion of that good or bad, or what is the fact of the matter that we are here today and we…

I don’t have to carry their guilt and shame, and that’s the whole point of the cross, right? Is for us to come all together and then ask for and repent and say, God, you’ve already carried this all to the cross, how… Now, do we move forward? Yeah, yeah, I would say too. I was thinking when you were talking, I was thinking about how… I know a lot of people have views and things to say about the riots, and although I do not agree necessarily with a lot of the things that… I will say this, I will say this. I was reading something and from the Bible was talking about how there was a woman that came in, I think Jesus was there at Simon’s house eating, and a woman came in and she fell at his feet and started pouring the oil on him and to everyone that was like, first of all, you are not worthy. What are you doing? Or welcome there. Yeah, like How dare you… And secondly, what I was… So Why would you be wasting this… The stuff like her topic, the way that she went about this situation, everyone was just taken the back like, Whoa, what is happening? This is not okay. She’s not worthy. And like, Who does this?

Interesting, now, he became very judgmental and perusing that, and Jesus basically presented to him like, you don’t really know her story, you don’t really know her struggle if you understood… If you understood, if you would step back from your judgment for a minute, and I take a step back and realize like, she’s just coming because she just wants… She wants… She’s seeking change, and this is her way, it’s radical, but she’s seeking change, and I just challenge people not to look at just the riot and the things and the crazy things, but look at… And I’m not saying I’m not talking about those who have gone and is stolen things think that’s people of every race that are doing that, those are not people that are seeking change, those are not people that are protesting for justice, that… Those should not be put together is like good police and police that aren’t… They should not be put together is the same way, the same grace if mersenne to be given for both of the communities there, but what I’m gonna say it’s also, if we could just take a step back from judging and just really look and read and go deeper and find out what is the anger there? It’s almost as if a mom that loves their child so much, this kid is having these tantrums and he just will not stop, well, okay, there may be a punishment that comes along with it, but then you have to realize, I should probably dig deep… Right, what’s the why? What’s the why? Why does my child that I love so much and I care about… Why do I keep having these tantras? You as a good mother is a good person, is an empathy is gonna shine through and you’re gonna try to dig deep to figure out, Oh, his big sister has been pinching him or his big sister has been taking stuff from his big sister has not been treating him, right? All this time. And so now he’s acting out, He’s frustrated, he’s angry, he needs change, he needs to be seen, needs to be heard, and what are you gonna do that’s really good at is… That is what we have to do, we have to understand that. Yes, we may not like to see what we’re seeing, and it’s frustrating and I… But if you just take a step back and look and do some research… Yeah, I find out what’s going on. It’s deeper than just this. Let’s not just pretend like, Oh, it’s only this big… No, it’s deeper. There’s so much more depth. If you go back and you read in history, and if we think for one minute that we can say, Oh, history doesn’t have anything to do it today, that is bananas, we still base our lives off the Constitution. Right, yeah. And how long ago was that fit… Okay, right, so no, history has a lot to do with today, so we need to look back, you need to go backwards and we need to read and we need to figure out how in the very beginning, how… Even right after the Civil War, even though slavery was abolished, okay, then what… Right, literally, there was enough boldness in that time for people to say… For the white leaders to say, they need to understand that they might be free, but they are not an equal, so there were so many things put in place from then all the way through… Yes, the… To make sure that the black man, the black woman knew… You aren’t equal. No, you don’t get to vote. No, you don’t get to study, you don’t get to read, you don’t get to be smarter, as a matter of fact, you gotta sign this contract, you’re gonna serve us, that’s what you’re gonna do, or you’re not as living a more… But you still don’t be on this contract, there were so many things that people really need to dig deep and a about to find out what happened in history. Yeah.

Because it’s still coming through. Now, an interesting thing about that is when I was reading, it was talking about how some people within your ethnicity, within the black community, that was their better option… Yeah, they could decide that they weren’t gonna follow any of those rules, but it was a better option to essentially sell themselves back into the state of servant hood, as white people like to call it, but back into being a… That they had opportunities that maybe they were going to marry into a white family, so that heritage was now within their white line, so much mental play, and that is just so disturbing, it’s so disturbing. And I know, like you said, there are other resources, and you had mentioned one to me the other day, the phone, what are some of the movies… ’cause everyone loves to Netflix and… Oh, I might not have a lot of readers. I don’t even know if the libraries are open right now, so this is something I feel like now, it’s been out for a while, but I would say a good start, honestly, would be the 13th on Netflix. It’s really the breakdown and understanding of the 13th Amendment and how so many loopholes were still in there to keep blacks from really truly being free and equal in society, so that… Just be prepared because… It’s definitely an eye-opener. It goes, I like it because it’s a break down, it starts at slavery, and it talks about… After slavery was abolished, it talks about the different laws that were put in place, but then it’s a time trial is what… It goes all the way through time to present day, good about different things that were put in place to still cause you know, at a certain point, you could no longer say the black people need to know that they’re not equal. That was not Italy. Correct. Any more in fortresses? In a haul at one… Any way you… Absolutely, so I just show the timeline of the different tactics and things that were used through time and is still being used to pretty much the present system, the a huge… Oh yeah, they then in a… Not yet.

Well, the prison systems that then start from the law officials, which then start from the court system, which is the supreme and then to all of that, and that was what I was reading the stats around and I’m like, Wait a second, so they’re committing the exact same thing and 38% more or having death sentences versus just going to jail.

There are so many things that I just never thought because, honestly, because I just trust… Because I’m naturally an optimist and I…

I’m like, Oh, that would never actually happen. They’re skewing the truth.

That’s just is… That’s literally lives from the enemy, and so to understand the fullness of all of our stories… It’s not them versus us. It’s all of our stories, it’s all of our history. It’s my baby’s understanding of themselves, and in order for them to be good citizens and for them to be true brothers and sisters, just like you said like, I see you, I have to see… I have to see, you have to actually know you in order to say like We’re sisters, and because I’ve been a strange from my sister and it’s not a fun feeling and I don’t know, she’s going through… And therefore, I have no right to judge even in that moment. And so all we can do is love. But at the end of the day, in order for change to occur, love is gonna have to take action, love is gonna have to be the first thing to speak and the first thing to act… And it hasn’t been that way.

Yeah, and I will say this too, when Martin Luther King was it, ’cause a lot of people like to go back and reference to what just to a… Martin did, let’s be honest here, and we really wanna talk about it through your research to your studying, no one agreed. Well, not no one, but a lot of people also did not agree with his tactics then, and as they were marching, a lot of times they were beating people were hosed down, we throw the son, so even then, the way they were going about it was radical and people didn’t greet, but now we can say, Oh, well, look at what… Martine made all these changes had he not gone against what people thought was acceptable in society… We wouldn’t be here today, right? We wouldn’t be where we are. So things, people feel like, Oh, why do you to be so radical… Radical makes changes. A radical make changes and that… That’s the reality of it.

And we definitely never discredit got, but made was a minister, he’s a minister, he was a man of God, and so the way he went about, he was about peace, but even still, even though he about piece, he did things that the sites and the Boca, he did things that weren’t necessarily popular in the time… Right. Or we did as… Just in love.

It was done in action.

There you go, right. It was always about action, and I will say this while you were talking about the court systems and things… Yeah, I know I want everyone else and I think…

I’m not sure exactly which outlet, but there are some outlet that has actually made this movie free right now, just mercy.

Yeah, listen, first of all, but just mercy, we were in the theaters the first week and it came out… Yes, we were excited about seeing, but also my son is a fanatic… Yeah, this was a lawyer. He had read the book.

He’s got a book at home.

A lawyer, young black lawyer, Harvard. These are all the things He spies to be A… We had to go, he’s got on his Harvard, the it, like that’s the is aspirations. So we went and sat and watched that movie and we went as a family, and I’m so glad that we did, it’s not like his favorite, so we’ve watched it plenty more times, but… What is it? Basically, the basis of the movie was this young lawyer, he didn’t really know what his Pat’s gonna be as a lawyer, he had to do… I guess I had to get some hours, maybe some type of internship or something, we had to go down to Alabama and talk to some inmates as a part of his educational experience, and when he talked to these inmates and realized, Wow, they really not represented… Well, at all, and then death row, these are the nets that are just automatically on darter on death row, and they were telling that haven’t really gotten anyone to represent me, there was a lawyer that came but never came back, they were just like, Oh, this… You just… My will take it, this is what it’s gonna… Tenth were so many, and so he does deeper and realize that, Oh my gosh, these people are being put on death row with a proper representation, and so that’s the premise of the… With the Mayan Bryan Stevenson, he still to this day fights for those who… And maybe they were guilty of a closer, but should they really be put in Detroit… I think I was on the internet and it took place because a lot of people see with… It was so long ago. I believe that the date of the movie was 89-90.Wow. 1989, 1990 was… You were children.

Yeah, this is very real. And I just… Oratorios an article recently that said, due to everything that’s going on.

And they always started with that, and I love that dude to everything or due to the George, Florida. Now they’re opening up a new case where 100 inmates in North Carolina on death row, they’re going to basically get to argue their case and say, Look, we shouldn’t be put to death, we might have been stuff out in case, but they are re-opening 100 of those cases.

Well, this is 2020 that just that to show your own people on death row, and it’s… I still wanna find that article ’cause I was so just enamored by the stats. Let’s see, it was saying… Even this is that we are… Is to the… Yeah, a black man is three times more likely to be searched at traffic stop, six times more likely to go to jail in a white man… This is today’s stats. If a black person kills a white person, here, she is twice as likely to receive the DeSantis as a white person who kills a black person, black serve up to 20% more time in prison than white people for the same exact crimes. And 38% are more likely to be sites to death than white people of the same crimes.

It’s bananas and it’s so wrong, and so in an your you… You can… And your son, who aspiring to be in the same situation as this guy who made this movie and the entire story, like I hope he gets Suitland in the Supreme Court. Yeah, I hope that these things happen and because of the home that he has been rooted in, because of the change and the action that you’ve instilled for your storyline, for our storyline, that’s how change is gonna take place.

And so again, it circles all the way back to what we’ve said from the get-go, it’s all about it starting at home, it’s all about the love that we’re showing in all ethnic groups, right. And actually putting ourselves in places where there are other ethnicities, like don’t just be white. It’s boring, I posits boring.

It’s not, but when I step foot in that Pentecostal, they’re not gonna costing more nondenominational in a coastal resort, there are 14 nationalities there, and like I never felt more at home than when I was there.

To this day, I still felt that way. And I visited many, many churches since there is something heavenly, ’cause it is heaven is… It’s not something it is heaven on or when you’re in a space like that, and I honestly don’t even know where to suggest you go, I don’t really know, and so I would just really… And just hope and pray that you would seek out a place of worship, go to a concert outside of your norm that is based in goodness, Christian ideally. I was thinking of one thing that you were saying, one thing that I wanted to share, you were talking about the different colors, a skin, but I was thinking about even how names are a part of that story line, and one of those… For me, my name is Tamara, and my whole life, I was always told that they were expecting me to look different when people would meet me, they thought that I would be black, and I was always like… So I just tried. No, I, I, I, I don’t have the extra… So I’m missing the extra juice, I don’t know, but I was always determined that I was like, wanted to represent regardless of what people thought of me, that this is a good human being, and so we have the ability to access parts of ourselves that we’re intended to be straight from heaven. Such as like dance, you go to Parkway and I got to dance for the first time in the light of the Lord versus dance like a white girl were dance and her body shaking places.

Right, right. So just to know that there are so many parts of your culture that we get to celebrate when we understand them, and even things like Here, come read my hair, right? Like we get to do things and be more of who we were made to be when we come into that cultural ism, when we come in… But in the diversity, and so go to different countries, be in spaces that make you uncomfortable, learn the different language, learn the different zip codes. It’s here, and I don’t like when people say, they are in a small town.

There was an influence or recently, and I felt horrible for her, but she was horribly called out about the fact that she decided she was gonna speak out on this topic and had never previously ever spoken out on this topic, and also had no sign of ethnic anywhere around her, her heart, I’m sure her heart posture is good, it was out of love, but there also has to be activation within you before you get to just raise up and say, I support.

Yeah, there has to be understanding, there has to be education. There has to be a conversation. And it doesn’t need to be public. Call someone, and if you don’t have access to that, seek it out, go to the books first, and I think ultimately, again, just like dining next to people, strike a conversation.

People just wanna be seen. You wanna be seen? So I could keep going ’cause I’m so I will up about it, but… Prena, do you have any closing words? closing thoughts, I know we’ve kind of thought about and prayed over this conversation for a few weeks now, I think… I guess a topic back off of what you were saying, Educate, definitely educated before you jump in on any side of things or with your ideals and your thoughts, just be willing to dig deeper, dig deep. Because there’s always a reason, and I always go back to children because I’m a mom.

Yeah, if I just punished my children because I heard allow being what… So I kinda heard the button of what was going on and here in troubling the Al…

Well, let’s look deeper. Let’s take a step back and figure out what is really going on.

Yeah, because if I just go into this judging the situation, guess what I’m gonna do, my children and are gonna get used to me just jumping in, ready to… They’re in trouble, ready to punish it. And guess what happens within Self see, go low, and then they’re like, You know what, I can’t ever make her happy, new A is, well, do whatever I… We don’t realize that that’s the same thing that happens when it comes race upon race, so then there are a lot of black people that may say, You know what, they’re ever gonna get me to wait, I might as well just be angry and just yell and just I have and I can go for any one… Yeah, so if you feel like, Man, you’re not even gonna hear my heart anyway, honestly, for me, I’ve been in situations where I feel like you’re not really gonna hear me anyway, I’m gonna back off, I didn’t become angry. Or I just said, I’m just gonna back off. Because what you’re saying is, you don’t want to hear me, you don’t want to see me, and I’m gonna back off.

And so that’s what happens, and then it’s what happens even more of what the enemy loves, division divide even more, because you’ve not wanted to look deeper, you’ve not wanted to dig deeper, and this is not just for, you know at Split people, then they know everybody needs to look deeper and see how they can learn about this person, that person, this edit group that we hit all because we co-exist, we don’t live in a world where we’re the only… Yeah, and if you’ve surrounded yourself in a world like that, time said, That is boring or I only want to… People, I’ve got a lot of kinda back when I first started teaching my children French a few years ago, I’m just eating french wine that’s not even like… Because it’s different, yeah. ’cause it’s fun and it’s different and why that is, be right, that state was something that could be functional here in American, I’m like, That’s okay. It’s a different… This exposure, then we know, okay, now this is a French food, and then this is a… I want exposure, and I think that if we as parents, if we as people would understand that we are not the only ethnicity, were not the only race here, there are so many others and there’s so much beauty and the other things… Why not embrace that? What do you want to… Your children are gonna go to school with owing homeschool, okay. But still, they have to go out in the world one day, they’re not gonna always be with you, don’t you want them to be able to go on a place and co-exist with those at around them and then just stand… The people around them. Yeah, it’s really good. And I think speaking right to the home school piece, is that now with this transition of virtual learning, this is an opportunity… Oh yeah, to literally a God blessing to say, Let me open your eyes, let me show you more deeply the story of your brothers and sisters, and so take this as an opportunity to get different reading material for them. We’re asked to read 20 minutes a day every day, right?

Let them read something new, let them not read the curriculum, let them read the Bible, let them get into something different than what’s being exposed constantly, ’cause what’s being exposed constantly is why we’re here.

Yeah, yeah, and it’s our job as moms to do that, and I totally hear you, ’cause I constantly… I go to the louder child, the louder child gets in trouble first in my home, and I have found out more recently after looking and searching and waiting before attacking, I have found that the quieter ones are really the ones you’ve gotta look for in a… Right, so what are we as the quieter in ethnic group doing while they’re really loud. Yeah, because that’s why we’re here, and that’s the why that we need to look at, we need to really self-reflect before we start going after somebody doing something different, and so I am staying enough for that, I did not go to the march is the last two days, but I am marching.

And so, I hope that this met other people who are willing to stand up or get on your knees, which was the reference back to what happened on Sunday. I know that there are other women and other men who are ready to link arms with us, but you have to be willing to open your fist and actually hear and actually have conversations. And that’s gonna look different for everyone. But there are ways to do it and people who are ready for it, so… Thank you.

Absolutely, and I know you’re probably gonna put my information… Yeah, I am completely open. An extra questions, any other resources that he may be looking for, I will say, as she was talking about getting different books for your children, books can be a little pricey, but… Don’t you worry. I am a mom that encourages reading, I had super readers at home, and so we used thrift books dot com… Cool.

All the time, and they’re all super discounted books, we can get five books and spending 20 books night, so I owe loading up… Why not teach them to read about it, why not let them see these different people on different races and ethnicities in the book, so… But I’m available, please reach out to me if you can be private, you can message me them however you like to do it, but I definitely would love to help and answer any further questions. I thank you for that, ’cause I do know that there are people who haven’t been exposed to other ethnicities, and that’s… There’s a wrong with it, if that’s again, where you’ve come from, but now is your opportunity… Right.

To expose yourself and learn.

So it’s arena, I am grateful to you. I wanna close in prayer. I don’t often get to do that in the podcast, but I think it’s necessary, so lately that I thank you so much for this incredible time, I thank you for your conversation, thank you for the conversation that you’re implanting on the hearts of men and women everywhere of brothers and sisters, God that we would not quiet our voices, but instead let our later life speak, let our hearts speak, not that you would know and you would lead this front, that you would lead this riot because it’s deserving of that, not that our generation to follow that our children would not know this hatred, that they would not know the suppression, the oppression at a… The pain got that they would learn it, but that they would lead in Love, God, that we as mothers and fathers would teach and open their eyes and open their ears, and ultimately open their heart, because we are opening the word, the truth to this conversation.

Got. The ethnicities are beautiful, that diversity is exactly what the kingdom of heaven looks like, and that we should celebrate it here as it is on Earth, not that we give people the opportunity to see heaven more often because we are coming together to rise up in your name.

We thank you that you sent your only son, your only son, Lord, to cover the multitude of sins that we as a human race have par taken and… But God, you are good, and You love us so intimately, no matter the color of the skin, that we are one race, Lord, that we are a one love, and that… This is your heart beat. This conversation is your heartbeat.

I pray that it falls on open ears, open eyes and open hearts, and that Sabrina would walk out of this conversation as an additional resource to people who have never had the opportunity to converse in the way that she is so open to do.

I thank you for her family, in her children and for her children’s children, and for her parents for searing such a woman of power.

In Your Sweet name.

Amen the men.

Thank you guys for being here. And we’ll see you later.

If I can find the exit, it’s somewhere there is, but


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